1
00:00:04,789 --> 00:00:02,310
you know there were times when i was

2
00:00:07,110 --> 00:00:04,799
doing jack that i actually felt

3
00:00:08,549 --> 00:00:07,120
[\h__\h] like really [\h__\h] i mean it

4
00:00:11,749 --> 00:00:08,559
brushed my teeth [\h__\h]

5
00:00:12,789 --> 00:00:11,759
i rode bus [\h__\h] damn in a weird way

6
00:00:15,270 --> 00:00:12,799
i had to sort of just

7
00:00:16,790 --> 00:00:15,280
free myself up to believe that it was

8
00:00:20,310 --> 00:00:16,800
okay to be stupid or

9
00:00:23,349 --> 00:00:20,320
dumb to be a [\h__\h] yeah to be moronical

10
00:00:25,830 --> 00:00:23,359
exactly to be a [\h__\h] an imbecile yeah

11
00:00:27,189 --> 00:00:25,840
but simple jack thought he was smart or

12
00:00:28,710 --> 00:00:27,199
rather didn't think it was [\h__\h] so

13
00:00:31,429 --> 00:00:28,720
he can't afford to play [\h__\h]

14
00:00:32,709 --> 00:00:31,439
being a smart actor playing a guy who

15
00:00:35,110 --> 00:00:32,719
ain't smart but thinks he is

16
00:00:36,470 --> 00:00:35,120
that's tricky tricky it's not working

17
00:00:38,630 --> 00:00:36,480
with mercury

18
00:00:40,150 --> 00:00:38,640
it's high science man it's art form yeah

19
00:00:42,470 --> 00:00:40,160
you an artist

20
00:00:43,510 --> 00:00:42,480
that's what we do right yeah yeah hats

21
00:00:45,029 --> 00:00:43,520
off of going there

22
00:00:47,750 --> 00:00:45,039
especially no not the academy is about

23
00:00:49,670 --> 00:00:47,760
that [\h__\h] that's of course ben stiller

24
00:00:51,750 --> 00:00:49,680
and robert downey jr

25
00:00:53,670 --> 00:00:51,760
from tropic thunder and it's a clip that

26
00:00:56,069 --> 00:00:53,680
has become somewhat of a

27
00:00:57,189 --> 00:00:56,079
touchstone cultural icon because the

28
00:00:58,389 --> 00:00:57,199
full [\h__\h] thing

29
00:01:00,630 --> 00:00:58,399
which is part of the clip that we're

30
00:01:02,709 --> 00:01:00,640
going to get to in a minute but i wanted

31
00:01:03,670 --> 00:01:02,719
to start with this long way around the

32
00:01:05,750 --> 00:01:03,680
barn clip

33
00:01:08,070 --> 00:01:05,760
on the first part because what he slips

34
00:01:09,030 --> 00:01:08,080
in there robert downey jr does in a very

35
00:01:11,350 --> 00:01:09,040
interesting way

36
00:01:13,109 --> 00:01:11,360
is the reference to the academy that

37
00:01:15,350 --> 00:01:13,119
being the academy awards which in our

38
00:01:19,030 --> 00:01:15,360
case serves as a very good stand

39
00:01:21,510 --> 00:01:19,040
in for culture and our popular culture

40
00:01:22,550 --> 00:01:21,520
and what we think of it and how we

41
00:01:25,350 --> 00:01:22,560
process it

42
00:01:27,190 --> 00:01:25,360
and if this intro is a long way around

43
00:01:29,749 --> 00:01:27,200
the barn which i assure you

44
00:01:31,350 --> 00:01:29,759
it is then you will have to stay with me

45
00:01:34,550 --> 00:01:31,360
for its link to

46
00:01:36,230 --> 00:01:34,560
today's guest mitch horowitz who is

47
00:01:39,510 --> 00:01:36,240
self-described historian

48
00:01:39,990 --> 00:01:39,520
of alternative spirituality and one of

49
00:01:42,870 --> 00:01:40,000
today's

50
00:01:43,749 --> 00:01:42,880
most literate voices of esoteric

51
00:01:45,670 --> 00:01:43,759
mysticism

52
00:01:46,950 --> 00:01:45,680
in the occult and he also happens to be

53
00:01:49,510 --> 00:01:46,960
a satanist now i'm not

54
00:01:51,590 --> 00:01:49,520
hating on him because he's a satanist as

55
00:01:52,149 --> 00:01:51,600
a matter of fact i like mature words oh

56
00:01:55,749 --> 00:01:52,159
at least

57
00:01:58,870 --> 00:01:55,759
i like him well enough but i'm not sure

58
00:02:02,870 --> 00:01:58,880
i trust mitch horwitz i'm not sure

59
00:02:03,350 --> 00:02:02,880
i believe mitch horowitz and i guess my

60
00:02:05,670 --> 00:02:03,360
doubt

61
00:02:08,070 --> 00:02:05,680
stems from this character that we

62
00:02:11,910 --> 00:02:08,080
touched on a couple episodes back

63
00:02:14,470 --> 00:02:11,920
named colonel michael aquino

64
00:02:15,350 --> 00:02:14,480
who it turns out is somebody that mitch

65
00:02:18,470 --> 00:02:15,360
identifies

66
00:02:21,510 --> 00:02:18,480
as one of his greatest sources of

67
00:02:23,110 --> 00:02:21,520
inspiration in that same article

68
00:02:25,030 --> 00:02:23,120
you're asked who are some of your

69
00:02:29,270 --> 00:02:25,040
greatest inspirations

70
00:02:32,390 --> 00:02:29,280
and you mention satanist michael aquino

71
00:02:33,030 --> 00:02:32,400
i mean mitch come on this guy is one of

72
00:02:40,869 --> 00:02:33,040
the

73
00:02:43,030 --> 00:02:40,879
whole bond

74
00:02:44,949 --> 00:02:43,040
if you say if you say it's not true okay

75
00:02:47,430 --> 00:02:44,959
i i get it it's not my saying it that's

76
00:02:49,350 --> 00:02:47,440
grotesquely inaccurate he died recently

77
00:02:50,949 --> 00:02:49,360
uh he had no involvement with pedophilia

78
00:02:52,229 --> 00:02:50,959
whatsoever i'm surprised that you say

79
00:02:54,710 --> 00:02:52,239
that

80
00:02:55,990 --> 00:02:54,720
okay back to tropic thunder you

81
00:02:58,229 --> 00:02:56,000
seriously don't know

82
00:02:59,430 --> 00:02:58,239
everybody knows you never go full [\h__\h]

83
00:03:02,309 --> 00:02:59,440
what do you mean

84
00:03:03,589 --> 00:03:02,319
check it out dustin hoffman rayman look

85
00:03:05,589 --> 00:03:03,599
[\h__\h] after afrotarted

86
00:03:07,190 --> 00:03:05,599
not [\h__\h] count two picks cheated

87
00:03:10,470 --> 00:03:07,200
cards artistic

88
00:03:11,509 --> 00:03:10,480
show navitating you know tom hanks

89
00:03:13,509 --> 00:03:11,519
forrest gump

90
00:03:15,110 --> 00:03:13,519
slow yes [\h__\h] maybe braces on his

91
00:03:16,949 --> 00:03:15,120
legs but he chomped the pants off next

92
00:03:19,350 --> 00:03:16,959
to then he won a ping-pong competition

93
00:03:22,229 --> 00:03:19,360
that ain't [\h__\h] he was goddamn war

94
00:03:25,110 --> 00:03:22,239
hero you know any [\h__\h] war heroes

95
00:03:26,470 --> 00:03:25,120
you went full [\h__\h] man never go for a

96
00:03:28,789 --> 00:03:26,480
[\h__\h]

97
00:03:30,710 --> 00:03:28,799
i love that clip on so many levels and

98
00:03:34,070 --> 00:03:30,720
maybe now you get what i mean

99
00:03:37,910 --> 00:03:34,080
i mean i can trust you just don't

100
00:03:39,030 --> 00:03:37,920
go full [\h__\h] on me don't ask me to

101
00:03:42,229 --> 00:03:39,040
believe that

102
00:03:45,910 --> 00:03:42,239
michael aquino is not a worst

103
00:03:47,270 --> 00:03:45,920
of the worst satanist sex abusing

104
00:03:50,309 --> 00:03:47,280
probably murder of

105
00:03:51,190 --> 00:03:50,319
children probably pedophile kind of

106
00:03:55,990 --> 00:03:51,200
person

107
00:03:57,750 --> 00:03:56,000
just go read his history it starts in 67

108
00:03:59,990 --> 00:03:57,760
when he's in the phoenix program which

109
00:04:03,589 --> 00:04:00,000
we talked about on the last episode

110
00:04:06,470 --> 00:04:03,599
but that's just the beginning he's named

111
00:04:08,390 --> 00:04:06,480
in the mk ultra program he's named by

112
00:04:09,509 --> 00:04:08,400
people involved in the franklin scandal

113
00:04:11,750 --> 00:04:09,519
in 82

114
00:04:13,589 --> 00:04:11,760
in 85 their satanic ritual abuse

115
00:04:15,750 --> 00:04:13,599
allegations at fort bragg

116
00:04:17,349 --> 00:04:15,760
again aquino is identified as being part

117
00:04:18,949 --> 00:04:17,359
of that and then the real ones that

118
00:04:19,749 --> 00:04:18,959
everyone points to and everyone knows

119
00:04:21,749 --> 00:04:19,759
about

120
00:04:23,350 --> 00:04:21,759
is at the presidio child development

121
00:04:26,830 --> 00:04:23,360
center in san francisco

122
00:04:29,590 --> 00:04:26,840
in 86 60 victims came

123
00:04:30,870 --> 00:04:29,600
forward these are all little kids three

124
00:04:32,790 --> 00:04:30,880
to seven years old

125
00:04:34,469 --> 00:04:32,800
and they described being taken to

126
00:04:36,550 --> 00:04:34,479
aquino's house

127
00:04:39,030 --> 00:04:36,560
with him and his wife they described the

128
00:04:41,909 --> 00:04:39,040
inside the crazy insane

129
00:04:43,189 --> 00:04:41,919
all black all red walls the altar the

130
00:04:45,990 --> 00:04:43,199
satanic altar

131
00:04:46,469 --> 00:04:46,000
kids don't make that up the evidence was

132
00:04:48,310 --> 00:04:46,479
so

133
00:04:49,510 --> 00:04:48,320
overwhelming that the police immediately

134
00:04:51,430 --> 00:04:49,520
got a search warrant

135
00:04:52,790 --> 00:04:51,440
and searched his house and what do they

136
00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:52,800
find

137
00:04:55,990 --> 00:04:55,520
all sorts of videotapes photographs

138
00:04:58,950 --> 00:04:56,000
photo

139
00:04:59,350 --> 00:04:58,960
albums all of it as we're later told but

140
00:05:02,230 --> 00:04:59,360
never

141
00:05:03,670 --> 00:05:02,240
shown is related to this child sexual

142
00:05:05,909 --> 00:05:03,680
abuse thing

143
00:05:07,110 --> 00:05:05,919
now you know there were a lot of people

144
00:05:09,189 --> 00:05:07,120
in the military

145
00:05:10,150 --> 00:05:09,199
who were providing cover for colonel

146
00:05:12,469 --> 00:05:10,160
michael aquino

147
00:05:13,590 --> 00:05:12,479
and i guess we'll never really know why

148
00:05:16,870 --> 00:05:13,600
but there are some who

149
00:05:18,469 --> 00:05:16,880
also stood up for that and in a report

150
00:05:20,550 --> 00:05:18,479
filed by the army's criminal

151
00:05:22,710 --> 00:05:20,560
investigation division they recommended

152
00:05:23,189 --> 00:05:22,720
that aquino be processed out of the army

153
00:05:26,469 --> 00:05:23,199
for

154
00:05:29,510 --> 00:05:26,479
indecent acts with a child sodomy

155
00:05:31,990 --> 00:05:29,520
conspiracy kidnapping and false

156
00:05:35,110 --> 00:05:32,000
swearing they also said in that report

157
00:05:37,830 --> 00:05:35,120
that aquino was not persuasive

158
00:05:39,029 --> 00:05:37,840
in his response to these allegations and

159
00:05:41,029 --> 00:05:39,039
then there's all the stuff in the san

160
00:05:41,990 --> 00:05:41,039
jose mercury news and other places that

161
00:05:43,590 --> 00:05:42,000
i read last time

162
00:05:45,350 --> 00:05:43,600
and then there's even more stuff that

163
00:05:47,110 --> 00:05:45,360
comes up later you know those accounts

164
00:05:49,909 --> 00:05:47,120
are published in his pictures published

165
00:05:52,150 --> 00:05:49,919
and children in other locations at other

166
00:05:53,590 --> 00:05:52,160
bases are coming forward and reporting

167
00:05:56,550 --> 00:05:53,600
that michael aquino

168
00:05:57,510 --> 00:05:56,560
abused these kids so was he convicted

169
00:06:00,870 --> 00:05:57,520
nope

170
00:06:02,629 --> 00:06:00,880
was not convicted is this speculation

171
00:06:04,230 --> 00:06:02,639
to a certain extent yeah i guess you'd

172
00:06:07,350 --> 00:06:04,240
have to say

173
00:06:09,830 --> 00:06:07,360
but to believe this guy isn't dirty

174
00:06:11,230 --> 00:06:09,840
to believe that this guy should be held

175
00:06:15,029 --> 00:06:11,240
up as some sort of

176
00:06:18,070 --> 00:06:15,039
inspiration that's going full [\h__\h]

177
00:06:21,909 --> 00:06:18,080
and i don't ever go full [\h__\h]

178
00:06:23,670 --> 00:06:21,919
here's my interview with mitch horowitz

179
00:06:26,150 --> 00:06:23,680
welcome to skeptico where we explore

180
00:06:28,390 --> 00:06:26,160
controversial science and spirituality

181
00:06:29,909 --> 00:06:28,400
with leading researchers thinkers and

182
00:06:32,870 --> 00:06:29,919
their critics i'm your host

183
00:06:34,870 --> 00:06:32,880
alex akaris you want to talk about

184
00:06:38,629 --> 00:06:34,880
controversial spirituality

185
00:06:39,350 --> 00:06:38,639
yeah we got the guy today mitch horowitz

186
00:06:42,790 --> 00:06:39,360
is here

187
00:06:45,749 --> 00:06:42,800
you know i don't generally read bios

188
00:06:48,230 --> 00:06:45,759
but mitch's website which is just pretty

189
00:06:51,670 --> 00:06:48,240
amazing website in and of itself has

190
00:06:54,070 --> 00:06:51,680
an amazing bio and i'm going to read it

191
00:06:55,990 --> 00:06:54,080
mitch horowitz is a historian of

192
00:06:58,870 --> 00:06:56,000
alternative spirituality

193
00:07:01,990 --> 00:06:58,880
and one of the most literate voices of

194
00:07:04,469 --> 00:07:02,000
esoterica mysticism and the occult

195
00:07:07,029 --> 00:07:04,479
mitch illuminates outsider history

196
00:07:07,589 --> 00:07:07,039
explains its relevance to contemporary

197
00:07:09,830 --> 00:07:07,599
life

198
00:07:11,189 --> 00:07:09,840
and reveals the long-standing quest to

199
00:07:15,189 --> 00:07:11,199
bring empowerment

200
00:07:18,230 --> 00:07:15,199
and agency to the human condition

201
00:07:19,430 --> 00:07:18,240
wow that is really well written which we

202
00:07:21,350 --> 00:07:19,440
would expect

203
00:07:24,309 --> 00:07:21,360
mitch is writer in residence lecture in

204
00:07:27,670 --> 00:07:24,319
residence at the new york public library

205
00:07:30,790 --> 00:07:27,680
award-winning author of books including

206
00:07:33,029 --> 00:07:30,800
occult america one simple idea and the

207
00:07:36,390 --> 00:07:33,039
miracle club

208
00:07:38,790 --> 00:07:36,400
ton ton ton of major media appearances

209
00:07:40,390 --> 00:07:38,800
cbs morning news dateline history

210
00:07:41,749 --> 00:07:40,400
channel he's on history channel all the

211
00:07:45,350 --> 00:07:41,759
time

212
00:07:47,110 --> 00:07:45,360
and uh he's here today joining us so

213
00:07:48,790 --> 00:07:47,120
mitch horowitz thank you so much for

214
00:07:50,390 --> 00:07:48,800
being here on skeptico

215
00:07:51,990 --> 00:07:50,400
thank you man happy to be here and you

216
00:07:53,589 --> 00:07:52,000
have got the voice

217
00:07:56,230 --> 00:07:53,599
you've got one of the best voices in

218
00:07:58,390 --> 00:07:56,240
podcasting and i want to say that

219
00:08:00,550 --> 00:07:58,400
that's that's let me take another sip of

220
00:08:02,469 --> 00:08:00,560
the tea i dig it

221
00:08:04,150 --> 00:08:02,479
keep doing whatever you're doing it's

222
00:08:07,990 --> 00:08:04,160
working great

223
00:08:09,430 --> 00:08:08,000
great so hey so many things to talk

224
00:08:12,150 --> 00:08:09,440
about

225
00:08:12,469 --> 00:08:12,160
questions i have that i don't see anyone

226
00:08:14,950 --> 00:08:12,479
else

227
00:08:16,550 --> 00:08:14,960
asking but maybe you know as a starting

228
00:08:18,950 --> 00:08:16,560
point

229
00:08:19,909 --> 00:08:18,960
tell people i think i get where you're

230
00:08:22,629 --> 00:08:19,919
coming from

231
00:08:24,150 --> 00:08:22,639
on the link between like a book like

232
00:08:27,350 --> 00:08:24,160
occult america which

233
00:08:30,230 --> 00:08:27,360
is essentially a historical book

234
00:08:32,870 --> 00:08:30,240
and then the link you're making to some

235
00:08:36,149 --> 00:08:32,880
of the positive human psychology

236
00:08:39,029 --> 00:08:36,159
human potential movement kind of stuff

237
00:08:40,389 --> 00:08:39,039
explain that sure well i call myself a

238
00:08:42,389 --> 00:08:40,399
believing historian

239
00:08:44,389 --> 00:08:42,399
i'm very much a participant in many of

240
00:08:46,389 --> 00:08:44,399
the alternative

241
00:08:48,470 --> 00:08:46,399
and esoteric spiritual movements that i

242
00:08:50,230 --> 00:08:48,480
write about and in fact that's true of

243
00:08:51,910 --> 00:08:50,240
most historians of religion they don't

244
00:08:53,990 --> 00:08:51,920
acknowledge that because they think that

245
00:08:57,509 --> 00:08:54,000
it will give the appearance of

246
00:08:58,949 --> 00:08:57,519
compromise or a lack of ability to think

247
00:08:59,910 --> 00:08:58,959
critically about the movements they're

248
00:09:02,790 --> 00:08:59,920
documenting

249
00:09:04,870 --> 00:09:02,800
but if you pull off the shelf almost any

250
00:09:07,269 --> 00:09:04,880
biography of a religious figure

251
00:09:08,389 --> 00:09:07,279
or a biography of a of a saint or a

252
00:09:10,470 --> 00:09:08,399
religious movement

253
00:09:12,470 --> 00:09:10,480
ancient or more recent almost always

254
00:09:15,430 --> 00:09:12,480
that's being written by somebody who

255
00:09:17,670 --> 00:09:15,440
emerges from the congregation uh that's

256
00:09:18,310 --> 00:09:17,680
being written about in fact being close

257
00:09:39,350 --> 00:09:18,320
to

258
00:09:43,269 --> 00:09:39,360
write as a seeker who documents

259
00:09:45,430 --> 00:09:43,279
uh metaphysics in history and practice

260
00:09:47,030 --> 00:09:45,440
but you also link up which i think is

261
00:09:49,030 --> 00:09:47,040
interesting this

262
00:09:50,710 --> 00:09:49,040
human potential movement positive

263
00:09:53,670 --> 00:09:50,720
psychology movement

264
00:09:55,110 --> 00:09:53,680
i mean you know napoleon hill you can

265
00:09:57,269 --> 00:09:55,120
get in there and talk about it

266
00:09:58,389 --> 00:09:57,279
i was listening to one of your lectures

267
00:10:00,470 --> 00:09:58,399
and you know

268
00:10:03,190 --> 00:10:00,480
you were talking about consciousness and

269
00:10:05,590 --> 00:10:03,200
j.b ryan and esp experiments

270
00:10:06,790 --> 00:10:05,600
and even linking that to the positive

271
00:10:08,949 --> 00:10:06,800
psychology movement

272
00:10:10,470 --> 00:10:08,959
so help people understand the connection

273
00:10:12,870 --> 00:10:10,480
there sure

274
00:10:14,550 --> 00:10:12,880
well i'm i'm very interested in positive

275
00:10:16,150 --> 00:10:14,560
mind metaphysics or what is sometimes

276
00:10:18,230 --> 00:10:16,160
called new thought

277
00:10:20,230 --> 00:10:18,240
more popularly that'll go under names

278
00:10:22,550 --> 00:10:20,240
that i i don't particularly like

279
00:10:24,069 --> 00:10:22,560
like the secret or law of attraction or

280
00:10:25,110 --> 00:10:24,079
power of positive thinking which i like

281
00:10:27,269 --> 00:10:25,120
a little more

282
00:10:29,110 --> 00:10:27,279
uh none of those movements capture what

283
00:10:30,310 --> 00:10:29,120
i'm about but i reference them just so

284
00:10:32,230 --> 00:10:30,320
people can

285
00:10:33,750 --> 00:10:32,240
understand you know this is the the

286
00:10:37,110 --> 00:10:33,760
tradition that i'm coming from

287
00:10:39,670 --> 00:10:37,120
albeit critically and i'm

288
00:10:41,750 --> 00:10:39,680
very very interested in rendering

289
00:10:45,990 --> 00:10:41,760
metaphysical ideas

290
00:10:48,870 --> 00:10:46,000
into their simplest simplest methodology

291
00:10:50,150 --> 00:10:48,880
and for me uh the new thought movement

292
00:10:52,790 --> 00:10:50,160
or the movement that holds

293
00:10:54,870 --> 00:10:52,800
the belief that your thoughts are in

294
00:10:55,509 --> 00:10:54,880
some way or another causative that

295
00:10:58,310 --> 00:10:55,519
thoughts

296
00:10:59,750 --> 00:10:58,320
contribute to or create experience i'm

297
00:11:01,190 --> 00:10:59,760
very very interested in that movement

298
00:11:01,750 --> 00:11:01,200
i'm also very deeply critical of that

299
00:11:03,509 --> 00:11:01,760
movement

300
00:11:04,790 --> 00:11:03,519
because i think what they're doing is

301
00:11:06,790 --> 00:11:04,800
they're taking

302
00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:06,800
a core metaphysical outlook they're

303
00:11:10,790 --> 00:11:08,800
taking the outlook that actually

304
00:11:12,150 --> 00:11:10,800
is at the heart of ceremonial magic

305
00:11:14,949 --> 00:11:12,160
chaos magic

306
00:11:15,750 --> 00:11:14,959
uh and all kinds of historical occult

307
00:11:17,509 --> 00:11:15,760
practices

308
00:11:19,350 --> 00:11:17,519
and they're trying to boil it down to

309
00:11:22,470 --> 00:11:19,360
something that can

310
00:11:23,990 --> 00:11:22,480
really really sit within the environs of

311
00:11:26,150 --> 00:11:24,000
everyday life and i like that

312
00:11:28,470 --> 00:11:26,160
i like that and my question is is it

313
00:11:30,150 --> 00:11:28,480
true does it work and there's no rushing

314
00:11:32,949 --> 00:11:30,160
to an answer on that

315
00:11:34,310 --> 00:11:32,959
okay let me kind of parse that a little

316
00:11:37,590 --> 00:11:34,320
bit because

317
00:11:40,710 --> 00:11:37,600
i get your criticism i think but i

318
00:11:42,310 --> 00:11:40,720
also get your criticism of those who

319
00:11:44,710 --> 00:11:42,320
would deny

320
00:11:46,310 --> 00:11:44,720
consciousness that it even exists the

321
00:11:46,710 --> 00:11:46,320
consciousness is an illusion this is

322
00:11:49,750 --> 00:11:46,720
kind of

323
00:11:51,110 --> 00:11:49,760
extreme scientific materialism

324
00:11:53,990 --> 00:11:51,120
that you're saying and i've heard in

325
00:11:57,110 --> 00:11:54,000
your lecture say guys it's just

326
00:11:58,629 --> 00:11:57,120
look at the data here is jb ryan here

327
00:12:00,470 --> 00:11:58,639
is i don't know if you've referenced

328
00:12:02,150 --> 00:12:00,480
dean raiden but here are all these

329
00:12:04,310 --> 00:12:02,160
parapsychology experiments

330
00:12:06,550 --> 00:12:04,320
they all point to the same thing how did

331
00:12:09,110 --> 00:12:06,560
we get in this ridiculous

332
00:12:09,990 --> 00:12:09,120
kind of it's driven by a lot of atheists

333
00:12:11,509 --> 00:12:10,000
kind of get behind

334
00:12:14,069 --> 00:12:11,519
this kind of consciousness is an

335
00:12:15,110 --> 00:12:14,079
illusion you don't really exist kind of

336
00:12:17,910 --> 00:12:15,120
thing

337
00:12:19,430 --> 00:12:17,920
play off of that it's it's orthodoxy you

338
00:12:21,509 --> 00:12:19,440
know it's just the most

339
00:12:23,030 --> 00:12:21,519
commonplace and ordinary form of human

340
00:12:24,949 --> 00:12:23,040
orthodoxy which is

341
00:12:26,550 --> 00:12:24,959
seizing on a position seizing on a point

342
00:12:27,910 --> 00:12:26,560
of view usually something that makes me

343
00:12:31,430 --> 00:12:27,920
feel safe

344
00:12:32,150 --> 00:12:31,440
and anybody who questions that point of

345
00:12:35,350 --> 00:12:32,160
view

346
00:12:38,710 --> 00:12:35,360
however carefully or

347
00:12:39,269 --> 00:12:38,720
however respectfully is regarded as if

348
00:12:41,430 --> 00:12:39,279
they

349
00:12:42,710 --> 00:12:41,440
you know just just just just crashed

350
00:12:46,069 --> 00:12:42,720
through my living room

351
00:12:49,990 --> 00:12:46,079
window you know in a car and

352
00:12:50,710 --> 00:12:50,000
the first of all we're in a very unusual

353
00:12:53,670 --> 00:12:50,720
time

354
00:12:55,350 --> 00:12:53,680
at this moment apropos of the philosophy

355
00:12:56,790 --> 00:12:55,360
of materialism which is pretty much what

356
00:12:58,310 --> 00:12:56,800
you were referring to the philosophy of

357
00:13:01,190 --> 00:12:58,320
materialism holds that

358
00:13:02,949 --> 00:13:01,200
matter creates itself and that thought

359
00:13:04,069 --> 00:13:02,959
or consciousness or whatever term one

360
00:13:06,550 --> 00:13:04,079
wants to use

361
00:13:07,829 --> 00:13:06,560
is just an epiphenomenon of the gray

362
00:13:11,110 --> 00:13:07,839
matter of the brain

363
00:13:14,949 --> 00:13:11,120
and the thoughts are like

364
00:13:15,350 --> 00:13:14,959
um bubbles in a carbonated glass of

365
00:13:18,069 --> 00:13:15,360
water

366
00:13:18,870 --> 00:13:18,079
is gone the bubbles is gone and that's

367
00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:18,880
it

368
00:13:22,629 --> 00:13:21,200
and that point of view no longer covers

369
00:13:24,230 --> 00:13:22,639
the basis of life it's going to stick

370
00:13:25,509 --> 00:13:24,240
around for a while because it's been

371
00:13:26,870 --> 00:13:25,519
very widely held

372
00:13:28,230 --> 00:13:26,880
and the people who hold that point of

373
00:13:29,190 --> 00:13:28,240
view in media and academia and

374
00:13:33,670 --> 00:13:29,200
journalism are

375
00:13:36,629 --> 00:13:33,680
very formidable and tireless however

376
00:13:37,509 --> 00:13:36,639
it's over it's over because we have so

377
00:13:41,350 --> 00:13:37,519
much evidence

378
00:13:43,590 --> 00:13:41,360
over the past 80 years or so that there

379
00:13:45,509 --> 00:13:43,600
is non-locality of thought that it can

380
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:45,519
be denied and damned and smashed but

381
00:13:50,150 --> 00:13:48,000
like galileo's telescope

382
00:13:52,389 --> 00:13:50,160
it's here and it's going to stick around

383
00:13:54,470 --> 00:13:52,399
you may reference to jb ryan he was an

384
00:13:56,790 --> 00:13:54,480
esp researcher who

385
00:13:58,550 --> 00:13:56,800
did a very wide range of academic

386
00:14:01,430 --> 00:13:58,560
experiments into

387
00:14:03,269 --> 00:14:01,440
esp or extra physical communication

388
00:14:03,990 --> 00:14:03,279
starting in the early 1930s at duke

389
00:14:05,430 --> 00:14:04,000
university

390
00:14:07,110 --> 00:14:05,440
without going into great detail and i

391
00:14:08,389 --> 00:14:07,120
see dean rayden who you also mentioned

392
00:14:11,670 --> 00:14:08,399
as a kind of inheritor

393
00:14:13,670 --> 00:14:11,680
to jb run the data that they

394
00:14:15,990 --> 00:14:13,680
and dozens of other academically based

395
00:14:19,189 --> 00:14:16,000
parapsychologists have assembled

396
00:14:21,269 --> 00:14:19,199
is absolutely sterling

397
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:21,279
and if you were to have a materialist

398
00:14:25,030 --> 00:14:22,800
critic on the show with me

399
00:14:26,230 --> 00:14:25,040
which i would welcome that person would

400
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,240
almost certainly say

401
00:14:31,030 --> 00:14:29,279
there isn't a shred of evidence

402
00:14:32,629 --> 00:14:31,040
and that's you know the phraseology

403
00:14:33,030 --> 00:14:32,639
that's very often used or something like

404
00:14:34,710 --> 00:14:33,040
it

405
00:14:37,750 --> 00:14:34,720
and they just don't know they simply

406
00:14:40,949 --> 00:14:37,760
don't know the data and uh

407
00:14:42,629 --> 00:14:40,959
if you put parapsychology into google

408
00:14:43,829 --> 00:14:42,639
the first five search results that come

409
00:14:44,870 --> 00:14:43,839
up probably the first one will be from

410
00:14:48,069 --> 00:14:44,880
wikipedia

411
00:14:49,590 --> 00:14:48,079
will represent to you incorrectly

412
00:14:51,189 --> 00:14:49,600
that this data doesn't exist or is

413
00:14:53,110 --> 00:14:51,199
riddled with holes or has

414
00:14:54,389 --> 00:14:53,120
not been repeatable and i understand

415
00:14:56,230 --> 00:14:54,399
that i understand people are reading

416
00:14:57,189 --> 00:14:56,240
that and that feels persuasive it is

417
00:14:58,710 --> 00:14:57,199
incorrect

418
00:15:00,470 --> 00:14:58,720
the data is absolutely overwhelming and

419
00:15:03,189 --> 00:15:00,480
i'm citing only one field

420
00:15:05,509 --> 00:15:03,199
there are more widely accepted fields

421
00:15:07,750 --> 00:15:05,519
such as neuroplasticity i could cite

422
00:15:08,949 --> 00:15:07,760
there are the outer reaches of placebo

423
00:15:14,310 --> 00:15:08,959
studies there

424
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,990
the placebo effect i mean take

425
00:15:18,629 --> 00:15:18,000
neuroplasticity for example this is a

426
00:15:20,870 --> 00:15:18,639
field that's

427
00:15:22,069 --> 00:15:20,880
that demonstrates through brain scans

428
00:15:25,110 --> 00:15:22,079
that

429
00:15:27,590 --> 00:15:25,120
your sustained thoughts uh

430
00:15:29,590 --> 00:15:27,600
if held to for a certain period of time

431
00:15:31,189 --> 00:15:29,600
will eventually change the cellular

432
00:15:32,949 --> 00:15:31,199
matter of your brain they will change

433
00:15:35,350 --> 00:15:32,959
the neural pathways through which

434
00:15:36,949 --> 00:15:35,360
electrical impulses travel in your brain

435
00:15:38,150 --> 00:15:36,959
no one questions this data it's

436
00:15:39,670 --> 00:15:38,160
uncontroversial

437
00:15:41,990 --> 00:15:39,680
what is controversial are the

438
00:15:43,509 --> 00:15:42,000
implications you're seeing that what we

439
00:15:45,910 --> 00:15:43,519
experience is thought

440
00:15:48,310 --> 00:15:45,920
is physically changing the brain as

441
00:15:50,389 --> 00:15:48,320
jeffrey schwartz a psychiatrist at ucla

442
00:15:52,790 --> 00:15:50,399
who really pioneered the field puts it

443
00:15:54,550 --> 00:15:52,800
it's literally mind over matter it's

444
00:15:55,829 --> 00:15:54,560
literally mind over matter on the

445
00:15:57,910 --> 00:15:55,839
cellular level

446
00:15:59,030 --> 00:15:57,920
of the brain it's not supposed to happen

447
00:16:01,269 --> 00:15:59,040
and yet there it is

448
00:16:03,189 --> 00:16:01,279
that in itself uh displaces the

449
00:16:05,030 --> 00:16:03,199
materialist thesis

450
00:16:06,710 --> 00:16:05,040
i interviewed schwartz on on the show

451
00:16:07,590 --> 00:16:06,720
and he's kind of an interesting guy

452
00:16:11,509 --> 00:16:07,600
because

453
00:16:13,509 --> 00:16:11,519
like all these guys he's really been

454
00:16:15,030 --> 00:16:13,519
muzzled at the same time he's not

455
00:16:17,590 --> 00:16:15,040
allowed to do his work

456
00:16:18,949 --> 00:16:17,600
as long as he presents it in a very

457
00:16:21,350 --> 00:16:18,959
narrow way

458
00:16:23,430 --> 00:16:21,360
and he's been he's been told directly do

459
00:16:24,470 --> 00:16:23,440
not talk about the implications of this

460
00:16:27,030 --> 00:16:24,480
because the only the other thing i

461
00:16:29,030 --> 00:16:27,040
always kind of got that i don't know

462
00:16:30,870 --> 00:16:29,040
from a philosophical standpoint it

463
00:16:31,990 --> 00:16:30,880
certainly raises the chicken in the egg

464
00:16:34,790 --> 00:16:32,000
question

465
00:16:36,069 --> 00:16:34,800
if thought is changing as you said the

466
00:16:38,310 --> 00:16:36,079
physical structure cellular

467
00:16:39,910 --> 00:16:38,320
structure of the brain well then roll

468
00:16:41,990 --> 00:16:39,920
that back to

469
00:16:43,269 --> 00:16:42,000
what is the origin of everything is the

470
00:16:45,829 --> 00:16:43,279
origin of everything

471
00:16:46,710 --> 00:16:45,839
thought is consciousness fundamental

472
00:16:48,870 --> 00:16:46,720
which is what all the

473
00:16:50,310 --> 00:16:48,880
great physicists told us kind of from

474
00:16:52,629 --> 00:16:50,320
the beginning yes

475
00:16:53,430 --> 00:16:52,639
and that comports with uh ancient

476
00:16:55,509 --> 00:16:53,440
classical

477
00:16:56,949 --> 00:16:55,519
religious thought i mean once you start

478
00:16:58,470 --> 00:16:56,959
to get into ancient thought there's

479
00:17:00,150 --> 00:16:58,480
really not a demarcation between

480
00:17:01,990 --> 00:17:00,160
philosophy and religion

481
00:17:03,350 --> 00:17:02,000
and the ancient greeks the ancient

482
00:17:06,069 --> 00:17:03,360
egyptians believed

483
00:17:06,870 --> 00:17:06,079
that all reality was eminent from a

484
00:17:09,750 --> 00:17:06,880
great

485
00:17:11,350 --> 00:17:09,760
infinite mind or a universal mind the

486
00:17:14,630 --> 00:17:11,360
greeks used to call it noose

487
00:17:16,870 --> 00:17:14,640
and that we are all part of concentric

488
00:17:18,230 --> 00:17:16,880
circles basically of the thoughts of

489
00:17:21,029 --> 00:17:18,240
that mind

490
00:17:22,069 --> 00:17:21,039
and that was at the heart of of many

491
00:17:25,270 --> 00:17:22,079
deeply ancient

492
00:17:27,750 --> 00:17:25,280
philosophies so terrific

493
00:17:29,029 --> 00:17:27,760
but now you know so we're talking about

494
00:17:30,789 --> 00:17:29,039
consciousness

495
00:17:32,950 --> 00:17:30,799
at the same time in that same lecture i

496
00:17:36,230 --> 00:17:32,960
heard you kind of pulled up a little bit

497
00:17:38,310 --> 00:17:36,240
short on extended consciousness

498
00:17:40,710 --> 00:17:38,320
i mean isn't the same evidence that

499
00:17:43,029 --> 00:17:40,720
we're talking about and pointing to

500
00:17:44,070 --> 00:17:43,039
just as solid when we talk about for

501
00:17:46,230 --> 00:17:44,080
example

502
00:17:47,750 --> 00:17:46,240
reincarnation and the work of ian

503
00:17:50,789 --> 00:17:47,760
stevenson and jim tucker

504
00:17:53,270 --> 00:17:50,799
at university of virginia we have

505
00:17:55,270 --> 00:17:53,280
not only accounts but we have right i

506
00:17:56,310 --> 00:17:55,280
mean we have birth marks that correlate

507
00:17:58,070 --> 00:17:56,320
to

508
00:17:59,909 --> 00:17:58,080
and and then near-death experience we

509
00:18:00,870 --> 00:17:59,919
have a ton of science hundreds and

510
00:18:03,750 --> 00:18:00,880
hundreds of

511
00:18:04,470 --> 00:18:03,760
right so are you willing to go there in

512
00:18:06,870 --> 00:18:04,480
terms of

513
00:18:08,950 --> 00:18:06,880
extended consciousness realms and what

514
00:18:11,990 --> 00:18:08,960
the science might be telling us

515
00:18:13,190 --> 00:18:12,000
there oh i do go there you know if one

516
00:18:16,950 --> 00:18:13,200
were to

517
00:18:21,110 --> 00:18:16,960
understand the gravity the clarity

518
00:18:23,750 --> 00:18:21,120
uh the methodological repetition

519
00:18:24,150 --> 00:18:23,760
of experiments by j.b ryan for example

520
00:18:28,789 --> 00:18:24,160
or

521
00:18:31,669 --> 00:18:28,799
any number of other parapsychologists uh

522
00:18:32,150 --> 00:18:31,679
dean rayden is is is a living example

523
00:18:34,390 --> 00:18:32,160
charles

524
00:18:36,950 --> 00:18:34,400
honorton was something of a protege to

525
00:18:38,789 --> 00:18:36,960
jb ryan figure i admire very much

526
00:18:41,190 --> 00:18:38,799
if you understand that and if you say

527
00:18:44,470 --> 00:18:41,200
look if i give you

528
00:18:46,150 --> 00:18:44,480
if i give an individual a deck of cards

529
00:18:47,750 --> 00:18:46,160
and he or she over the course of

530
00:18:49,750 --> 00:18:47,760
thousands of trials

531
00:18:51,029 --> 00:18:49,760
keeps scoring several points above a

532
00:18:54,470 --> 00:18:51,039
random hit rate

533
00:18:56,390 --> 00:18:54,480
then there appears to be some anomalous

534
00:18:58,549 --> 00:18:56,400
transfer of information going on

535
00:18:59,990 --> 00:18:58,559
and if one accepts the esp thesis then

536
00:19:02,070 --> 00:19:00,000
it stands to reason that

537
00:19:03,669 --> 00:19:02,080
we have a non-physical existence we have

538
00:19:05,029 --> 00:19:03,679
an extra physical existence

539
00:19:07,270 --> 00:19:05,039
which is my only definition of

540
00:19:10,230 --> 00:19:07,280
spirituality the extra physical

541
00:19:11,270 --> 00:19:10,240
which then opens up the question of a

542
00:19:13,990 --> 00:19:11,280
creator

543
00:19:15,750 --> 00:19:14,000
an afterlife eternal recurrence i mean

544
00:19:17,029 --> 00:19:15,760
we're still just on our knees peeking

545
00:19:19,430 --> 00:19:17,039
through a little keyhole

546
00:19:21,510 --> 00:19:19,440
but all those questions get opened up

547
00:19:23,110 --> 00:19:21,520
and through that opening step people

548
00:19:24,789 --> 00:19:23,120
like ian stevenson who you were just

549
00:19:28,789 --> 00:19:24,799
referencing a now deceased

550
00:19:31,029 --> 00:19:28,799
brilliant uva scientist who who studied

551
00:19:32,549 --> 00:19:31,039
uh the case for scientific evidence of

552
00:19:35,110 --> 00:19:32,559
esp and found

553
00:19:36,710 --> 00:19:35,120
birthmarks concurrent across proposed

554
00:19:38,950 --> 00:19:36,720
lifetimes and so forth

555
00:19:40,150 --> 00:19:38,960
and you have all kinds of openings and

556
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:40,160
possibilities

557
00:19:45,110 --> 00:19:42,960
uh raymond moody is a friend who coined

558
00:19:48,549 --> 00:19:45,120
the term near-death experience we have

559
00:19:52,870 --> 00:19:48,559
such a vastness of vastness of testimony

560
00:19:55,510 --> 00:19:52,880
sometimes correlating with with with

561
00:19:57,270 --> 00:19:55,520
extremely and deeply tantalizing

562
00:19:58,950 --> 00:19:57,280
scientific validations

563
00:20:00,549 --> 00:19:58,960
it's impossible to close the door on

564
00:20:02,630 --> 00:20:00,559
these questions just as

565
00:20:04,630 --> 00:20:02,640
it is today impossible to close the door

566
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:04,640
in the ufo thesis for example

567
00:20:08,390 --> 00:20:06,960
it's not directly related but i can say

568
00:20:11,990 --> 00:20:08,400
for certain

569
00:20:12,950 --> 00:20:12,000
18 months ago you could stand around

570
00:20:16,230 --> 00:20:12,960
somewhere

571
00:20:17,990 --> 00:20:16,240
ufos

572
00:20:20,149 --> 00:20:18,000
little green men swamp gas it's

573
00:20:20,630 --> 00:20:20,159
imaginary today you'd look absurd doing

574
00:20:25,350 --> 00:20:20,640
that

575
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:25,360
point of view is held by no serious

576
00:20:28,549 --> 00:20:26,400
person

577
00:20:30,070 --> 00:20:28,559
and i think although these things are

578
00:20:32,149 --> 00:20:30,080
not directly related

579
00:20:33,669 --> 00:20:32,159
i think we may be on the precipice of

580
00:20:35,270 --> 00:20:33,679
something similar

581
00:20:37,270 --> 00:20:35,280
with regard to some of these questions

582
00:20:38,149 --> 00:20:37,280
of the paranormal materialism is not

583
00:20:39,909 --> 00:20:38,159
going away

584
00:20:41,750 --> 00:20:39,919
and materialism has also brought us some

585
00:20:42,470 --> 00:20:41,760
good things i'm not so sure i want it to

586
00:20:44,870 --> 00:20:42,480
go away

587
00:20:45,750 --> 00:20:44,880
i just want materialists who are serious

588
00:20:47,909 --> 00:20:45,760
not cynical

589
00:20:50,070 --> 00:20:47,919
and who actually know the material and

590
00:20:53,350 --> 00:20:50,080
realize what they're looking at because

591
00:20:55,510 --> 00:20:53,360
denial is anti-intellectualism

592
00:20:57,190 --> 00:20:55,520
i'm with you on part of that i guess

593
00:20:58,070 --> 00:20:57,200
where i'm going and we'll kind of keep

594
00:21:01,669 --> 00:20:58,080
hitting on it

595
00:21:04,070 --> 00:21:01,679
further is as we want to probe

596
00:21:04,950 --> 00:21:04,080
into those extended realms like i love

597
00:21:08,230 --> 00:21:04,960
the way you build

598
00:21:09,430 --> 00:21:08,240
the argument solid right consciousness

599
00:21:11,430 --> 00:21:09,440
is not an illusion

600
00:21:12,950 --> 00:21:11,440
it's not an f phenomenon of the brain we

601
00:21:14,070 --> 00:21:12,960
are not biological robots in a

602
00:21:17,029 --> 00:21:14,080
meaningless universe

603
00:21:17,430 --> 00:21:17,039
we are more so then what we all want to

604
00:21:20,549 --> 00:21:17,440
know

605
00:21:21,270 --> 00:21:20,559
is what is that more how do we sit in

606
00:21:23,110 --> 00:21:21,280
this

607
00:21:24,950 --> 00:21:23,120
world relative to these extended

608
00:21:28,230 --> 00:21:24,960
consciousness realms

609
00:21:30,149 --> 00:21:28,240
and in that way you know

610
00:21:32,470 --> 00:21:30,159
what near-death experience science is

611
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:32,480
telling us what reincarnation is

612
00:21:36,470 --> 00:21:35,440
telling us has some direct implications

613
00:21:38,390 --> 00:21:36,480
for

614
00:21:39,830 --> 00:21:38,400
sorting out those questions beginning to

615
00:21:40,549 --> 00:21:39,840
nudge a little bit closer to those

616
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,559
questions

617
00:21:44,390 --> 00:21:42,720
how do you feel about how do you feel

618
00:21:47,909 --> 00:21:44,400
about that database yeah

619
00:21:48,950 --> 00:21:47,919
um i haven't i don't consider myself

620
00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:48,960
somebody who is an

621
00:21:53,270 --> 00:21:51,440
expert on near-death experience or

622
00:21:54,070 --> 00:21:53,280
eternal recurrence or reincarnation i

623
00:21:57,510 --> 00:21:54,080
mean i focus

624
00:21:59,190 --> 00:21:57,520
largely on questions of mind causation

625
00:22:01,110 --> 00:21:59,200
and fields in areas where we see that

626
00:22:03,270 --> 00:22:01,120
showing up like psychical research

627
00:22:05,669 --> 00:22:03,280
neuroplasticity placebo studies

628
00:22:07,430 --> 00:22:05,679
quantum theory and so on but there's

629
00:22:09,830 --> 00:22:07,440
absolutely no question

630
00:22:11,669 --> 00:22:09,840
that we lead in extra physical existence

631
00:22:13,750 --> 00:22:11,679
and what form that takes

632
00:22:14,789 --> 00:22:13,760
sometimes will come in the form of the

633
00:22:18,710 --> 00:22:14,799
near-death

634
00:22:20,870 --> 00:22:18,720
experience on questions of an afterlife

635
00:22:22,950 --> 00:22:20,880
it's really just impossible for me to

636
00:22:23,430 --> 00:22:22,960
say it's really impossible for me to say

637
00:22:26,789 --> 00:22:23,440
i mean

638
00:22:29,669 --> 00:22:26,799
esp itself does not show up in everybody

639
00:22:31,510 --> 00:22:29,679
esp itself is something that it can be

640
00:22:33,669 --> 00:22:31,520
demonstrated to repeat

641
00:22:34,950 --> 00:22:33,679
but it's not like turning a faucet on

642
00:22:37,190 --> 00:22:34,960
and off so

643
00:22:37,990 --> 00:22:37,200
we just have one very small piece of the

644
00:22:41,350 --> 00:22:38,000
puzzle

645
00:22:42,149 --> 00:22:41,360
and it's hard for me to extrapolate from

646
00:22:45,270 --> 00:22:42,159
that

647
00:22:46,950 --> 00:22:45,280
uh into any concrete statements about

648
00:22:47,430 --> 00:22:46,960
near-death experiences other than

649
00:22:50,149 --> 00:22:47,440
feeling

650
00:22:51,110 --> 00:22:50,159
absolutely certain uh that the mind is a

651
00:22:53,750 --> 00:22:51,120
non-local

652
00:22:54,870 --> 00:22:53,760
phenomena the mind is not just an epi

653
00:22:57,110 --> 00:22:54,880
phenomena of

654
00:22:58,870 --> 00:22:57,120
the brain and which is why i'm deeply

655
00:23:01,909 --> 00:22:58,880
interested in near-death experiences

656
00:23:05,350 --> 00:23:01,919
i can't claim any expertise in that area

657
00:23:07,909 --> 00:23:05,360
let's talk satanism i love

658
00:23:10,310 --> 00:23:07,919
famous i love your directness i love

659
00:23:12,470 --> 00:23:10,320
that you tackle tough questions

660
00:23:14,630 --> 00:23:12,480
and that's what this piece that you

661
00:23:18,630 --> 00:23:14,640
posted in medium is all about

662
00:23:21,029 --> 00:23:18,640
you said i get asked that question

663
00:23:22,310 --> 00:23:21,039
a lot and uh the question is are you a

664
00:23:24,870 --> 00:23:22,320
satanist

665
00:23:25,909 --> 00:23:24,880
take us through your answer to that

666
00:23:28,549 --> 00:23:25,919
question and

667
00:23:30,870 --> 00:23:28,559
why you answer it the way you do well i

668
00:23:34,870 --> 00:23:30,880
use very blunt language i use terms like

669
00:23:38,070 --> 00:23:34,880
esp as you've just heard

670
00:23:40,070 --> 00:23:38,080
occult new age positive thinking i like

671
00:23:42,310 --> 00:23:40,080
to be very plain i don't feel

672
00:23:43,510 --> 00:23:42,320
a sense of desperately needing to get

673
00:23:47,510 --> 00:23:43,520
away from

674
00:23:50,549 --> 00:23:47,520
uh vocabulary in fact i dislike

675
00:23:53,750 --> 00:23:50,559
leaving vocabulary terms to be defined

676
00:23:56,950 --> 00:23:53,760
solely by their critics or used as

677
00:23:58,549 --> 00:23:56,960
epithets and i came to feel uh probably

678
00:24:03,029 --> 00:23:58,559
going back to the late

679
00:24:06,390 --> 00:24:03,039
fall of 2017 that there is in fact

680
00:24:07,430 --> 00:24:06,400
an intellectual spiritual literary

681
00:24:09,350 --> 00:24:07,440
tradition

682
00:24:12,549 --> 00:24:09,360
in the west that can justly be called

683
00:24:15,909 --> 00:24:12,559
satanism that views

684
00:24:17,909 --> 00:24:15,919
the figure of satan as seen in

685
00:24:19,190 --> 00:24:17,919
its most nascent form let's say

686
00:24:21,350 --> 00:24:19,200
symbolically

687
00:24:22,870 --> 00:24:21,360
as the parabolic snake in the garden in

688
00:24:27,110 --> 00:24:22,880
genesis 3

689
00:24:30,870 --> 00:24:27,120
as the force of rebellion usurpation

690
00:24:34,390 --> 00:24:30,880
revolution radical individuality

691
00:24:37,669 --> 00:24:34,400
non-conformity anti-heroics

692
00:24:38,470 --> 00:24:37,679
and it dawned on me that within our

693
00:24:40,470 --> 00:24:38,480
founding

694
00:24:43,430 --> 00:24:40,480
myth of the creation and the garden of

695
00:24:45,190 --> 00:24:43,440
eden humanity simply wasn't humanity

696
00:24:46,789 --> 00:24:45,200
according to any definition that that we

697
00:24:49,990 --> 00:24:46,799
would understand today

698
00:24:51,830 --> 00:24:50,000
until came the snake and said to eve

699
00:24:53,830 --> 00:24:51,840
look at the bargain that has been struck

700
00:24:55,029 --> 00:24:53,840
here you're kept in this garden of

701
00:24:56,870 --> 00:24:55,039
paradise

702
00:24:59,029 --> 00:24:56,880
like a pretty fish in an aquarium or

703
00:25:01,430 --> 00:24:59,039
like a poodle in a pet store window yes

704
00:25:03,430 --> 00:25:01,440
every need is taken care of but you've

705
00:25:04,950 --> 00:25:03,440
been told cruelly it seems

706
00:25:06,630 --> 00:25:04,960
that the one tree in the garden from

707
00:25:08,070 --> 00:25:06,640
which you cannot eat is that which will

708
00:25:10,789 --> 00:25:08,080
give you perspective

709
00:25:12,390 --> 00:25:10,799
measurement possibility creativity eat

710
00:25:15,110 --> 00:25:12,400
from it you won't die

711
00:25:16,950 --> 00:25:15,120
and so he did and did not die and thus

712
00:25:18,070 --> 00:25:16,960
was born the beings that we literally

713
00:25:21,110 --> 00:25:18,080
know as human

714
00:25:23,190 --> 00:25:21,120
born with friction born with suffering

715
00:25:25,269 --> 00:25:23,200
born with difficulty all of which are

716
00:25:27,029 --> 00:25:25,279
the price of creation

717
00:25:28,549 --> 00:25:27,039
and that figure of the satanic is what

718
00:25:30,630 --> 00:25:28,559
some of the romantic poets

719
00:25:31,669 --> 00:25:30,640
starting with william blake were trying

720
00:25:33,110 --> 00:25:31,679
to reclaim

721
00:25:34,630 --> 00:25:33,120
and i was very excited and i was very

722
00:25:34,950 --> 00:25:34,640
aroused by that and i felt the truth of

723
00:25:36,710 --> 00:25:34,960
it

724
00:25:38,310 --> 00:25:36,720
and i feel that there is an esoteric

725
00:25:40,230 --> 00:25:38,320
tradition that can

726
00:25:41,350 --> 00:25:40,240
fairly if controversially be called

727
00:25:42,870 --> 00:25:41,360
satanism in the west

728
00:25:45,269 --> 00:25:42,880
that has nothing to do with

729
00:25:46,870 --> 00:25:45,279
entertainment or gory and ridiculous

730
00:25:48,390 --> 00:25:46,880
delusions that come out of the q anon

731
00:25:50,230 --> 00:25:48,400
movement or other things

732
00:25:51,750 --> 00:25:50,240
that has everything to do with a kind of

733
00:25:54,230 --> 00:25:51,760
underground esoteric tradition

734
00:25:57,750 --> 00:25:54,240
perhaps the most forbidden tradition but

735
00:25:59,909 --> 00:25:57,760
one that we would not be human without

736
00:26:02,070 --> 00:25:59,919
you know whenever i bring up the topic

737
00:26:03,430 --> 00:26:02,080
of satanism or talk to people who

738
00:26:06,070 --> 00:26:03,440
identify as satanists

739
00:26:09,110 --> 00:26:06,080
on this show they generally fall into

740
00:26:12,310 --> 00:26:09,120
one of two camps one is

741
00:26:14,710 --> 00:26:12,320
you know kind of a anti-reactionary

742
00:26:16,870 --> 00:26:14,720
christian type and up first of all i'm

743
00:26:19,029 --> 00:26:16,880
not christian i'm not religious

744
00:26:20,710 --> 00:26:19,039
uh i'm certainly not an atheist but i

745
00:26:23,269 --> 00:26:20,720
don't fall into any of those camps

746
00:26:23,990 --> 00:26:23,279
but like an example of this is a cbs

747
00:26:26,549 --> 00:26:24,000
radio long

748
00:26:28,070 --> 00:26:26,559
time guy just interviewed him not too

749
00:26:30,149 --> 00:26:28,080
long ago

750
00:26:32,310 --> 00:26:30,159
richard allen right so he comes on the

751
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,320
show and he's just a pure

752
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:34,720
atheist materialist straight down he

753
00:26:37,909 --> 00:26:35,760
goes satanism

754
00:26:38,789 --> 00:26:37,919
yeah i joined the tepla set i joined

755
00:26:42,149 --> 00:26:38,799
this other one

756
00:26:44,230 --> 00:26:42,159
purely as kind of this reactionary push

757
00:26:45,990 --> 00:26:44,240
against christianity but from this very

758
00:26:46,310 --> 00:26:46,000
atheistic position that we're talking

759
00:26:49,350 --> 00:26:46,320
about

760
00:26:52,710 --> 00:26:49,360
which always seems kind of ridiculous

761
00:26:54,710 --> 00:26:52,720
in a way and that he doesn't understand

762
00:26:55,830 --> 00:26:54,720
any of this extended consciousness that

763
00:26:57,590 --> 00:26:55,840
we're talking about if you're closed

764
00:27:00,070 --> 00:26:57,600
down to that i can't get it

765
00:27:01,029 --> 00:27:00,080
but the other way i hear it is kind of

766
00:27:04,390 --> 00:27:01,039
in the way that

767
00:27:04,789 --> 00:27:04,400
you're representing it you know kind of

768
00:27:08,390 --> 00:27:04,799
a

769
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:08,400
gods i love this

770
00:27:13,909 --> 00:27:10,320
you know a force of radical

771
00:27:17,110 --> 00:27:13,919
individualism radical non-conformity

772
00:27:19,269 --> 00:27:17,120
i i get that but i guess

773
00:27:20,470 --> 00:27:19,279
you know i don't know how we really do

774
00:27:23,909 --> 00:27:20,480
separate that

775
00:27:25,430 --> 00:27:23,919
from the culture so you know we have

776
00:27:28,630 --> 00:27:25,440
this force

777
00:27:29,750 --> 00:27:28,640
which is this spiritually charged energy

778
00:27:31,750 --> 00:27:29,760
and we can't really

779
00:27:33,510 --> 00:27:31,760
you call it a force we could call it a

780
00:27:35,669 --> 00:27:33,520
spiritual energy

781
00:27:37,190 --> 00:27:35,679
whatever term we use isn't really going

782
00:27:39,590 --> 00:27:37,200
to work

783
00:27:40,389 --> 00:27:39,600
but if we are co-creators of this

784
00:27:42,070 --> 00:27:40,399
reality

785
00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:42,080
which is essentially what you're what

786
00:27:46,549 --> 00:27:44,080
you're positing and i'm all about that

787
00:27:51,029 --> 00:27:46,559
we're co-creators

788
00:27:51,909 --> 00:27:51,039
then we're also co-experiencers of this

789
00:27:54,549 --> 00:27:51,919
culture

790
00:27:56,070 --> 00:27:54,559
and certainly the cultural attachment

791
00:27:59,750 --> 00:27:56,080
that's been made to

792
00:28:02,310 --> 00:27:59,760
satanism and domination and

793
00:28:04,230 --> 00:28:02,320
evil and all that kind of stuff why

794
00:28:07,190 --> 00:28:04,240
would we choose to

795
00:28:08,789 --> 00:28:07,200
be a part of of that co-creation

796
00:28:11,590 --> 00:28:08,799
identify with that i mean hell

797
00:28:13,269 --> 00:28:11,600
why not uh i'm not sure about the

798
00:28:15,909 --> 00:28:13,279
historical jesus

799
00:28:16,710 --> 00:28:15,919
i'm rather doubtful of the historical

800
00:28:18,950 --> 00:28:16,720
jesus

801
00:28:19,870 --> 00:28:18,960
but i would certainly rather identify

802
00:28:22,870 --> 00:28:19,880
with that

803
00:28:24,870 --> 00:28:22,880
co-created consciousness

804
00:28:27,110 --> 00:28:24,880
of you know love everyone tell the truth

805
00:28:30,230 --> 00:28:27,120
than i would satan

806
00:28:32,630 --> 00:28:30,240
well i understand that and

807
00:28:33,669 --> 00:28:32,640
uh to some extent you know this has to

808
00:28:37,590 --> 00:28:33,679
do with very

809
00:28:40,389 --> 00:28:37,600
very deeply embedded uh definitions

810
00:28:41,669 --> 00:28:40,399
that we in the western world are the

811
00:28:43,990 --> 00:28:41,679
recipients of

812
00:28:44,870 --> 00:28:44,000
and there are many many deeply embedded

813
00:28:47,110 --> 00:28:44,880
definitions

814
00:28:48,789 --> 00:28:47,120
in our lives including you know higher

815
00:28:50,070 --> 00:28:48,799
and lower for example i mean which

816
00:28:52,070 --> 00:28:50,080
actually doesn't really

817
00:28:53,669 --> 00:28:52,080
exist if you ask me to point out i go

818
00:28:55,669 --> 00:28:53,679
that way but at this point

819
00:28:57,430 --> 00:28:55,679
someone in australia is watching your

820
00:28:58,389 --> 00:28:57,440
show and he's having an entirely

821
00:29:00,070 --> 00:28:58,399
different experience

822
00:29:03,350 --> 00:29:00,080
it's not the same as mine although we

823
00:29:04,310 --> 00:29:03,360
agree consensus based on what such terms

824
00:29:07,590 --> 00:29:04,320
are

825
00:29:11,190 --> 00:29:07,600
i am trying to overturn

826
00:29:13,190 --> 00:29:11,200
the definition uh that we have

827
00:29:14,630 --> 00:29:13,200
of the satanic in the west going back to

828
00:29:18,710 --> 00:29:14,640
its earliest roots

829
00:29:21,110 --> 00:29:18,720
as uh a term for a kind of adversarial

830
00:29:22,630 --> 00:29:21,120
or opposing force that you find within

831
00:29:24,630 --> 00:29:22,640
ancient hebrew

832
00:29:26,950 --> 00:29:24,640
up through esoteric traditions that came

833
00:29:30,070 --> 00:29:26,960
much later including and primarily

834
00:29:33,669 --> 00:29:30,080
the romantic movements and

835
00:29:36,870 --> 00:29:33,679
the thought systems of john milton

836
00:29:39,269 --> 00:29:36,880
lord byron percy by shelley and so on

837
00:29:41,110 --> 00:29:39,279
all of that is very interesting to me

838
00:29:41,830 --> 00:29:41,120
this may be too great a windmill for me

839
00:29:43,750 --> 00:29:41,840
to tilt at

840
00:29:45,909 --> 00:29:43,760
you know i may be able to redeem certain

841
00:29:47,350 --> 00:29:45,919
terms like new age for example

842
00:29:49,029 --> 00:29:47,360
because i don't want them to just be

843
00:29:50,470 --> 00:29:49,039
defined by their critics this term may

844
00:29:53,590 --> 00:29:50,480
be too foundational

845
00:29:55,190 --> 00:29:53,600
for me to to redeem but i don't run away

846
00:29:56,070 --> 00:29:55,200
from very blunt language and i don't run

847
00:29:59,029 --> 00:29:56,080
away from

848
00:30:00,630 --> 00:29:59,039
frankly talking about it and that's um

849
00:30:03,269 --> 00:30:00,640
that's my effort

850
00:30:04,470 --> 00:30:03,279
okay i i i can't i can buy that to a

851
00:30:06,789 --> 00:30:04,480
certain extent

852
00:30:07,590 --> 00:30:06,799
but i i just feel at some point we have

853
00:30:09,190 --> 00:30:07,600
to get

854
00:30:10,789 --> 00:30:09,200
we have to kind of compare it with stuff

855
00:30:11,430 --> 00:30:10,799
that's going on like in that same

856
00:30:14,310 --> 00:30:11,440
article

857
00:30:15,510 --> 00:30:14,320
i'll pull it up again you're asked for

858
00:30:16,950 --> 00:30:15,520
who are some of your greatest

859
00:30:21,269 --> 00:30:16,960
inspirations

860
00:30:24,389 --> 00:30:21,279
and you mention satanist michael aquino

861
00:30:25,029 --> 00:30:24,399
i mean mitch come on this guy is one of

862
00:30:32,470 --> 00:30:25,039
the

863
00:30:34,070 --> 00:30:32,480
whole bond

864
00:30:35,750 --> 00:30:34,080
hold on if you say if you say it's not

865
00:30:37,590 --> 00:30:35,760
true okay i i guess

866
00:30:39,350 --> 00:30:37,600
it's not my saying it that's grotesquely

867
00:30:41,350 --> 00:30:39,360
inaccurate he died recently

868
00:30:42,870 --> 00:30:41,360
uh he had no involvement with pedophilia

869
00:30:43,590 --> 00:30:42,880
whatsoever i'm surprised that you say

870
00:30:46,149 --> 00:30:43,600
that

871
00:30:47,990 --> 00:30:46,159
well the reason i say it is because it's

872
00:30:52,149 --> 00:30:48,000
as it's reported in the

873
00:30:54,310 --> 00:30:52,159
san jose mercury news and you know

874
00:30:56,230 --> 00:30:54,320
as they reported it and it's vintage

875
00:30:57,269 --> 00:30:56,240
because he was caught up in the satanic

876
00:30:59,830 --> 00:30:57,279
panic in the

877
00:31:01,430 --> 00:30:59,840
late 80s early 90s and most of the stuff

878
00:31:03,350 --> 00:31:01,440
that came out of the satanic panic is

879
00:31:05,029 --> 00:31:03,360
utter and complete fantasy and

880
00:31:06,389 --> 00:31:05,039
terrible calendar on the people who were

881
00:31:08,230 --> 00:31:06,399
accused i would

882
00:31:09,750 --> 00:31:08,240
i would include him in that i don't know

883
00:31:12,549 --> 00:31:09,760
him personally never did

884
00:31:13,350 --> 00:31:12,559
but uh i i speak of him as a literary

885
00:31:15,430 --> 00:31:13,360
figure

886
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:15,440
i would advise you know reading his

887
00:31:21,350 --> 00:31:18,240
works and i think he was a dynamic um

888
00:31:22,549 --> 00:31:21,360
thinker well i can pull up i can pull up

889
00:31:24,230 --> 00:31:22,559
on this screen but

890
00:31:26,630 --> 00:31:24,240
i have it up on the other screen okay i

891
00:31:27,509 --> 00:31:26,640
will so here it is i now have it on the

892
00:31:29,830 --> 00:31:27,519
screen

893
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:29,840
child abuse at the pursuit exactly the

894
00:31:33,590 --> 00:31:31,600
vintage i expected yeah i mean this was

895
00:31:35,909 --> 00:31:33,600
part of the whole satanic panic thing

896
00:31:36,630 --> 00:31:35,919
the most the vast vast number of these

897
00:31:38,230 --> 00:31:36,640
charges

898
00:31:40,230 --> 00:31:38,240
and i will read this article if you send

899
00:31:42,630 --> 00:31:40,240
it to me have been not only

900
00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:42,640
disproved but held up to be just a kind

901
00:31:45,590 --> 00:31:43,440
of mass

902
00:31:46,789 --> 00:31:45,600
hysteria i don't know this article but i

903
00:31:48,149 --> 00:31:46,799
know the vintage

904
00:31:50,149 --> 00:31:48,159
well we can talk about that for a minute

905
00:31:50,470 --> 00:31:50,159
are you familiar with uh i mean here's

906
00:31:55,269 --> 00:31:50,480
the

907
00:31:57,350 --> 00:31:55,279
and this is again reported in san jose

908
00:31:59,190 --> 00:31:57,360
mercury news that sees aquino

909
00:32:00,789 --> 00:31:59,200
and says runs over to dad and holds her

910
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:00,799
leg and says that's the horrible man

911
00:32:03,909 --> 00:32:02,080
that did all these things

912
00:32:05,269 --> 00:32:03,919
and you know with regard to the satanic

913
00:32:07,430 --> 00:32:05,279
panic thing

914
00:32:09,190 --> 00:32:07,440
i i'd be very careful this article is

915
00:32:12,630 --> 00:32:09,200
from 1988

916
00:32:16,789 --> 00:32:12,640
you know and and the the the the

917
00:32:18,870 --> 00:32:16,799
the entire story of the satanic panic

918
00:32:20,310 --> 00:32:18,880
was not dissimilar to stories of other

919
00:32:22,630 --> 00:32:20,320
miss hysteria such as

920
00:32:24,230 --> 00:32:22,640
uh the silent witch trials where there

921
00:32:25,909 --> 00:32:24,240
were also similar things

922
00:32:28,549 --> 00:32:25,919
are you familiar with the book the witch

923
00:32:29,909 --> 00:32:28,559
hunt narrative by brown university

924
00:32:33,750 --> 00:32:29,919
professor

925
00:32:36,310 --> 00:32:33,760
dr ross cheat no

926
00:32:37,590 --> 00:32:36,320
i mean it kind of completely smashes the

927
00:32:40,710 --> 00:32:37,600
idea of this

928
00:32:42,470 --> 00:32:40,720
kind of wacky satanic panic and he does

929
00:32:44,870 --> 00:32:42,480
it just with evidence you know like the

930
00:32:47,990 --> 00:32:44,880
evidence in the presidio thing that

931
00:32:48,389 --> 00:32:48,000
uh michael aquino was directly connected

932
00:32:51,669 --> 00:32:48,399
with

933
00:32:52,950 --> 00:32:51,679
directly i mean he was brought charges

934
00:32:55,190 --> 00:32:52,960
were brought they just never

935
00:32:57,110 --> 00:32:55,200
completed the prosecution of them which

936
00:32:59,750 --> 00:32:57,120
happens so often in these cases

937
00:33:01,830 --> 00:32:59,760
but there was evidence of sexual

938
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:01,840
molestation of these three-year-old kids

939
00:33:05,909 --> 00:33:04,320
they had sexually transmitted diseases

940
00:33:07,029 --> 00:33:05,919
then their parents didn't have any of

941
00:33:09,909 --> 00:33:07,039
those diseases

942
00:33:12,549 --> 00:33:09,919
so that may that may be but i would be

943
00:33:14,389 --> 00:33:12,559
very careful about uh

944
00:33:15,590 --> 00:33:14,399
laying that at his doorstep people

945
00:33:17,909 --> 00:33:15,600
suffer and

946
00:33:19,509 --> 00:33:17,919
um and crimes are committed and i want

947
00:33:21,190 --> 00:33:19,519
those crimes prosecuted and i want

948
00:33:22,549 --> 00:33:21,200
people to be heard and things to be

949
00:33:24,389 --> 00:33:22,559
brought to justice

950
00:33:26,630 --> 00:33:24,399
uh but the overarching theme of the

951
00:33:27,590 --> 00:33:26,640
satanic panic in many many many dozens

952
00:33:29,029 --> 00:33:27,600
of cases

953
00:33:30,950 --> 00:33:29,039
which has been the subject of recent

954
00:33:33,669 --> 00:33:30,960
articles including in the new york times

955
00:33:34,870 --> 00:33:33,679
um which which which you know we could

956
00:33:37,190 --> 00:33:34,880
put up on the screen

957
00:33:38,870 --> 00:33:37,200
it was a trail of absolute paranoia

958
00:33:41,190 --> 00:33:38,880
calumny and false charges

959
00:33:42,389 --> 00:33:41,200
in general and so i'd be very careful

960
00:33:44,230 --> 00:33:42,399
i'm not denying

961
00:33:45,909 --> 00:33:44,240
uh the presence of suffering and justice

962
00:33:47,669 --> 00:33:45,919
that needs to be delivered i stand for

963
00:33:50,070 --> 00:33:47,679
that i stand for it

964
00:33:51,190 --> 00:33:50,080
but the reason you hear me defending him

965
00:33:53,669 --> 00:33:51,200
um

966
00:33:55,430 --> 00:33:53,679
is because dozens of people uh many of

967
00:33:56,310 --> 00:33:55,440
whom were less flamboyant than michael

968
00:33:59,110 --> 00:33:56,320
aquino

969
00:34:01,029 --> 00:33:59,120
uh some many of whom were entirely

970
00:34:02,549 --> 00:34:01,039
innocent people including you know

971
00:34:04,149 --> 00:34:02,559
daycare workers healthcare workers

972
00:34:06,630 --> 00:34:04,159
counselors uh

973
00:34:07,830 --> 00:34:06,640
were guilty of absolutely nothing and

974
00:34:10,230 --> 00:34:07,840
and yet at that time

975
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:10,240
concurrent with that there were actual

976
00:34:13,589 --> 00:34:12,320
real documented cases of abuse going on

977
00:34:15,510 --> 00:34:13,599
on a mass scale

978
00:34:17,270 --> 00:34:15,520
within very mainstream institutions like

979
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:17,280
the boy scouts of america

980
00:34:20,550 --> 00:34:18,800
and the catholic church those are just

981
00:34:22,550 --> 00:34:20,560
facts very often

982
00:34:23,909 --> 00:34:22,560
a society will sort of displace what's

983
00:34:24,629 --> 00:34:23,919
going on in the mainstream onto the

984
00:34:26,790 --> 00:34:24,639
fringes

985
00:34:29,349 --> 00:34:26,800
uh because it presents a much easier and

986
00:34:31,190 --> 00:34:29,359
more salacious target

987
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:31,200
i i agree with you that there's a lot to

988
00:34:33,510 --> 00:34:32,560
sort through here and the whole

989
00:34:35,990 --> 00:34:33,520
christian thing

990
00:34:36,869 --> 00:34:36,000
can really muddy the waters because a

991
00:34:39,589 --> 00:34:36,879
lot of the people

992
00:34:41,030 --> 00:34:39,599
who were kind of stoking the flames of

993
00:34:43,589 --> 00:34:41,040
the satanic panic and

994
00:34:45,349 --> 00:34:43,599
just to be clear satanic panic is real

995
00:34:45,990 --> 00:34:45,359
right there were a lot of people who

996
00:34:48,230 --> 00:34:46,000
were

997
00:34:49,510 --> 00:34:48,240
caught up in something that was in their

998
00:34:51,829 --> 00:34:49,520
wrongful accusations

999
00:34:52,710 --> 00:34:51,839
they're people sitting in jail probably

1000
00:34:54,310 --> 00:34:52,720
today

1001
00:34:55,990 --> 00:34:54,320
as a result of that and some of them

1002
00:34:57,670 --> 00:34:56,000
have been let out but the

1003
00:35:00,069 --> 00:34:57,680
real evidence and the reason i brought

1004
00:35:02,630 --> 00:35:00,079
up that book the witch hunt narrative

1005
00:35:05,030 --> 00:35:02,640
is that at the core of those cases there

1006
00:35:09,190 --> 00:35:05,040
was also a movement to discredit

1007
00:35:10,069 --> 00:35:09,200
the core reality of satanic crimes

1008
00:35:11,829 --> 00:35:10,079
against children

1009
00:35:13,270 --> 00:35:11,839
you know mcmartin preschool is one of

1010
00:35:14,150 --> 00:35:13,280
the ones that everyone kind of points to

1011
00:35:17,109 --> 00:35:14,160
as oh my god

1012
00:35:19,030 --> 00:35:17,119
martin preschool go back and look at the

1013
00:35:19,750 --> 00:35:19,040
first case that's reported at mcmartin

1014
00:35:21,670 --> 00:35:19,760
preschool

1015
00:35:23,750 --> 00:35:21,680
it's this kid matt johnson who's three

1016
00:35:25,910 --> 00:35:23,760
years old and comes back and he's

1017
00:35:27,430 --> 00:35:25,920
bleeding from his butt and he says mommy

1018
00:35:30,230 --> 00:35:27,440
the teacher did this to me

1019
00:35:32,470 --> 00:35:30,240
they rush him to ucla medical and you

1020
00:35:35,510 --> 00:35:32,480
know go to cheat's book he has all the

1021
00:35:37,670 --> 00:35:35,520
the names of the people at

1022
00:35:39,109 --> 00:35:37,680
ucla and they examined and said this

1023
00:35:40,790 --> 00:35:39,119
looks like sexual abuse and they go

1024
00:35:42,870 --> 00:35:40,800
let's bring it in somebody else and go

1025
00:35:44,390 --> 00:35:42,880
this looks like sexual abuse let's call

1026
00:35:46,069 --> 00:35:44,400
the cops and they call the cops

1027
00:35:47,750 --> 00:35:46,079
and that's when they start interviewing

1028
00:35:51,109 --> 00:35:47,760
people at mcmartin preschool

1029
00:35:51,829 --> 00:35:51,119
now whether the prosecution always leads

1030
00:35:54,790 --> 00:35:51,839
to

1031
00:35:55,670 --> 00:35:54,800
you know convictions of all these people

1032
00:35:58,710 --> 00:35:55,680
that's a whole

1033
00:36:02,230 --> 00:35:58,720
other you know but

1034
00:36:03,510 --> 00:36:02,240
i i i i dispute the premise that there's

1035
00:36:05,349 --> 00:36:03,520
a connection between

1036
00:36:07,670 --> 00:36:05,359
uh child abuse and something called

1037
00:36:09,829 --> 00:36:07,680
satanism because there is first of all

1038
00:36:12,230 --> 00:36:09,839
there is such a diffusion of definitions

1039
00:36:13,750 --> 00:36:12,240
of satanism i've given you one

1040
00:36:15,270 --> 00:36:13,760
that one has to be very careful about

1041
00:36:18,310 --> 00:36:15,280
the terms one's using

1042
00:36:21,030 --> 00:36:18,320
uh and there are there there may be

1043
00:36:22,069 --> 00:36:21,040
people who use any kind of definitions

1044
00:36:24,790 --> 00:36:22,079
for themselves

1045
00:36:26,069 --> 00:36:24,800
uh that are not necessarily part of any

1046
00:36:29,589 --> 00:36:26,079
uh historical

1047
00:36:31,589 --> 00:36:29,599
lineage movement or community and we

1048
00:36:33,589 --> 00:36:31,599
very rarely attempt to define these

1049
00:36:35,430 --> 00:36:33,599
terms in terms of how the individual him

1050
00:36:38,550 --> 00:36:35,440
or herself is using it

1051
00:36:39,430 --> 00:36:38,560
and the fact is there are instances of

1052
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:39,440
abuse

1053
00:36:44,550 --> 00:36:42,320
run rife across our society the satanist

1054
00:36:46,150 --> 00:36:44,560
accusations are used to obfuscate rather

1055
00:36:47,270 --> 00:36:46,160
than to reveal those instances and

1056
00:36:48,630 --> 00:36:47,280
that's how they have been used

1057
00:36:50,310 --> 00:36:48,640
historically

1058
00:36:52,150 --> 00:36:50,320
there's a point there that you're making

1059
00:36:55,030 --> 00:36:52,160
that i i would definitely

1060
00:36:55,589 --> 00:36:55,040
agree with and i'm not trying to you

1061
00:36:58,550 --> 00:36:55,599
know

1062
00:36:59,349 --> 00:36:58,560
shift more of the responsibility to

1063
00:37:01,910 --> 00:36:59,359
satanist

1064
00:37:02,950 --> 00:37:01,920
than needs to go there and i think that

1065
00:37:05,109 --> 00:37:02,960
speaks to the

1066
00:37:06,310 --> 00:37:05,119
larger understanding of this extended

1067
00:37:09,430 --> 00:37:06,320
consciousness realm

1068
00:37:10,470 --> 00:37:09,440
and some of the forces in that extended

1069
00:37:13,750 --> 00:37:10,480
realm that are

1070
00:37:17,349 --> 00:37:13,760
truly benevolent you know

1071
00:37:20,630 --> 00:37:17,359
but i don't want to get away from either

1072
00:37:21,990 --> 00:37:20,640
the idea that satanists haven't been

1073
00:37:24,470 --> 00:37:22,000
associated with this

1074
00:37:25,109 --> 00:37:24,480
and michael aquino again i mean these

1075
00:37:29,109 --> 00:37:25,119
charges

1076
00:37:31,829 --> 00:37:29,119
they follow him from the 60s when he's

1077
00:37:34,230 --> 00:37:31,839
doing all this horrible stuff in vietnam

1078
00:37:36,550 --> 00:37:34,240
right through all the 80s and the 90s

1079
00:37:39,430 --> 00:37:36,560
and that keep coming up again and again

1080
00:37:40,069 --> 00:37:39,440
and like i say the presidio uh daycare

1081
00:37:42,870 --> 00:37:40,079
thing

1082
00:37:44,470 --> 00:37:42,880
is is really pretty overwhelming

1083
00:37:46,950 --> 00:37:44,480
evidence i think for a lot of people

1084
00:37:47,829 --> 00:37:46,960
and i guess you i get you can pull up on

1085
00:37:51,270 --> 00:37:47,839
the fact that

1086
00:37:54,310 --> 00:37:51,280
he wasn't convicted i just don't get the

1087
00:37:55,589 --> 00:37:54,320
inspiration i i don't get that well i'll

1088
00:37:58,790 --> 00:37:55,599
say two things first of all i

1089
00:38:01,109 --> 00:37:58,800
i dispute your characterization um

1090
00:38:03,510 --> 00:38:01,119
i i i'm not familiar with that article

1091
00:38:05,270 --> 00:38:03,520
but i was correct to suggest as i did at

1092
00:38:07,670 --> 00:38:05,280
the outset that it was probably from

1093
00:38:09,589 --> 00:38:07,680
the late 80s early 90s which was the

1094
00:38:11,270 --> 00:38:09,599
deepest darkest period of the satanic

1095
00:38:12,710 --> 00:38:11,280
panic in which people's lives were

1096
00:38:14,630 --> 00:38:12,720
destroyed

1097
00:38:16,150 --> 00:38:14,640
based on false accusations that were

1098
00:38:18,710 --> 00:38:16,160
often stoked by therapists

1099
00:38:19,990 --> 00:38:18,720
counselors clergy self-styled experts

1100
00:38:20,710 --> 00:38:20,000
who were supposed to be protecting the

1101
00:38:22,310 --> 00:38:20,720
very people

1102
00:38:24,710 --> 00:38:22,320
who were sometimes exploited in these

1103
00:38:24,950 --> 00:38:24,720
situations there have been many articles

1104
00:38:29,190 --> 00:38:24,960
and

1105
00:38:30,710 --> 00:38:29,200
the new york times who have no sympathy

1106
00:38:32,710 --> 00:38:30,720
for paranormal themes

1107
00:38:34,150 --> 00:38:32,720
that have traced the false history of

1108
00:38:35,990 --> 00:38:34,160
this narrative so

1109
00:38:37,589 --> 00:38:36,000
i don't know every source and i can't

1110
00:38:40,710 --> 00:38:37,599
say that i have the final word on

1111
00:38:44,150 --> 00:38:40,720
every personality but that is a

1112
00:38:45,589 --> 00:38:44,160
a a widely established fact of our civic

1113
00:38:47,990 --> 00:38:45,599
culture at this point

1114
00:38:49,829 --> 00:38:48,000
uh my praise for aqui hold up but what

1115
00:38:53,030 --> 00:38:49,839
is what is the fact that that

1116
00:38:55,990 --> 00:38:53,040
i wasn't i agree in as much as

1117
00:38:58,150 --> 00:38:56,000
in as much as mccarthyism fomented uh an

1118
00:39:00,550 --> 00:38:58,160
unjustified witch-hunt mentality so did

1119
00:39:02,710 --> 00:39:00,560
the satanic panic

1120
00:39:03,829 --> 00:39:02,720
yeah but all i'm saying is that guy at

1121
00:39:05,829 --> 00:39:03,839
mcmartin

1122
00:39:07,109 --> 00:39:05,839
raped little kids and the evidence is

1123
00:39:09,589 --> 00:39:07,119
pretty clear

1124
00:39:10,230 --> 00:39:09,599
and he was performing satanic rituals as

1125
00:39:13,190 --> 00:39:10,240
part of it

1126
00:39:14,150 --> 00:39:13,200
he was cutting off the the heads of

1127
00:39:16,870 --> 00:39:14,160
animals

1128
00:39:17,349 --> 00:39:16,880
and ritualistically and then in court he

1129
00:39:19,670 --> 00:39:17,359
said

1130
00:39:21,670 --> 00:39:19,680
it was animal husbands tree animal

1131
00:39:24,710 --> 00:39:21,680
husbandry

1132
00:39:25,910 --> 00:39:24,720
shows for four and five years old so i i

1133
00:39:27,670 --> 00:39:25,920
don't know that you're

1134
00:39:29,190 --> 00:39:27,680
talking do you know the boy scouts of

1135
00:39:32,069 --> 00:39:29,200
america

1136
00:39:34,710 --> 00:39:32,079
has declared bankruptcy to shield itself

1137
00:39:37,270 --> 00:39:34,720
from the wave of survivor abuse cases

1138
00:39:39,190 --> 00:39:37,280
i am sure that some of those cases are

1139
00:39:41,190 --> 00:39:39,200
false and incorrect i am sure that some

1140
00:39:42,710 --> 00:39:41,200
of those cases are absolutely true as

1141
00:39:44,390 --> 00:39:42,720
with the catholic church

1142
00:39:46,710 --> 00:39:44,400
i can't account for every single

1143
00:39:48,310 --> 00:39:46,720
individual you know and there may be a

1144
00:39:48,950 --> 00:39:48,320
case where somebody was engaged in

1145
00:39:51,589 --> 00:39:48,960
something

1146
00:39:53,430 --> 00:39:51,599
you know the unabomber had a copy of you

1147
00:39:54,790 --> 00:39:53,440
know the bible and catcher in the rye in

1148
00:39:55,670 --> 00:39:54,800
his cabin i don't know what he called

1149
00:39:57,270 --> 00:39:55,680
himself

1150
00:39:59,349 --> 00:39:57,280
you know but i can't account for every

1151
00:40:02,069 --> 00:39:59,359
single individual i'm talking about

1152
00:40:04,950 --> 00:40:02,079
the satanic panic being a period of mass

1153
00:40:06,870 --> 00:40:04,960
hysteria and a real brutalization

1154
00:40:09,030 --> 00:40:06,880
of people's individual rights and lives

1155
00:40:10,950 --> 00:40:09,040
ruined based on these false accusations

1156
00:40:12,550 --> 00:40:10,960
now aquino is somebody who i have

1157
00:40:14,790 --> 00:40:12,560
praised for his literary work

1158
00:40:16,150 --> 00:40:14,800
which goes back to the early 70s i

1159
00:40:19,829 --> 00:40:16,160
mention and i reference

1160
00:40:23,430 --> 00:40:19,839
several of his books which i think are

1161
00:40:26,470 --> 00:40:23,440
brilliant reconceptualizations

1162
00:40:29,270 --> 00:40:26,480
set in or satanic themes

1163
00:40:29,910 --> 00:40:29,280
okay and just i'll take one more stab at

1164
00:40:31,190 --> 00:40:29,920
this kind of

1165
00:40:33,910 --> 00:40:31,200
indirectly because i was really trying

1166
00:40:36,550 --> 00:40:33,920
to connect the two things one is that

1167
00:40:38,390 --> 00:40:36,560
if there is this co-created culture that

1168
00:40:40,870 --> 00:40:38,400
we both agree that we're a part of we

1169
00:40:42,870 --> 00:40:40,880
we are co-creators of our own reality in

1170
00:40:45,990 --> 00:40:42,880
some way we don't totally understand

1171
00:40:48,230 --> 00:40:46,000
and we're also collectively co-creators

1172
00:40:50,829 --> 00:40:48,240
of our culture in some way that we don't

1173
00:40:53,270 --> 00:40:50,839
fully understand and we are

1174
00:40:55,990 --> 00:40:53,280
co-creating satanism and the

1175
00:40:56,309 --> 00:40:56,000
as it's portrayed in as you point out

1176
00:40:59,109 --> 00:40:56,319
not

1177
00:41:01,510 --> 00:40:59,119
always in a way that you would as a

1178
00:41:03,190 --> 00:41:01,520
historian of spirituality

1179
00:41:04,790 --> 00:41:03,200
like to see it go but the way it's

1180
00:41:05,750 --> 00:41:04,800
portrayed in movies and film and all the

1181
00:41:08,870 --> 00:41:05,760
rest of that stuff

1182
00:41:11,030 --> 00:41:08,880
so i just don't think it's it's

1183
00:41:12,230 --> 00:41:11,040
hard to understand that there would be

1184
00:41:14,150 --> 00:41:12,240
certain people

1185
00:41:17,270 --> 00:41:14,160
that would identify with that what you

1186
00:41:20,790 --> 00:41:17,280
call force what i call spiritual energy

1187
00:41:21,349 --> 00:41:20,800
what i call possibility in this extended

1188
00:41:24,150 --> 00:41:21,359
realm

1189
00:41:25,270 --> 00:41:24,160
some malevolent force that for a very

1190
00:41:27,589 --> 00:41:25,280
long time

1191
00:41:28,309 --> 00:41:27,599
has tried to pull things in a certain

1192
00:41:29,990 --> 00:41:28,319
direction

1193
00:41:31,910 --> 00:41:30,000
again i'm not christian so i'm not

1194
00:41:34,069 --> 00:41:31,920
trying to say this great

1195
00:41:35,109 --> 00:41:34,079
fight and and i'm not what you were just

1196
00:41:37,829 --> 00:41:35,119
describing and

1197
00:41:38,790 --> 00:41:37,839
and i'm i'm trying to say that uh my

1198
00:41:42,069 --> 00:41:38,800
very definition

1199
00:41:44,870 --> 00:41:42,079
at the outset of this exchange was uh

1200
00:41:45,829 --> 00:41:44,880
actually in opposition to malevolence

1201
00:41:47,990 --> 00:41:45,839
and so

1202
00:41:49,990 --> 00:41:48,000
we have a disagreement about terms and

1203
00:41:51,910 --> 00:41:50,000
i'm trying to

1204
00:41:53,589 --> 00:41:51,920
use that term in a different way i may

1205
00:41:55,349 --> 00:41:53,599
fail at that because it may just be that

1206
00:41:57,190 --> 00:41:55,359
there's too much baggage attached to it

1207
00:41:58,870 --> 00:41:57,200
and i've taken on a windmill that even i

1208
00:42:00,870 --> 00:41:58,880
can't tilt at but i'm

1209
00:42:02,069 --> 00:42:00,880
applying a vastly and radically

1210
00:42:04,069 --> 00:42:02,079
different definition

1211
00:42:05,670 --> 00:42:04,079
and one that is esoterically grounded

1212
00:42:09,030 --> 00:42:05,680
that i think is defensible

1213
00:42:11,270 --> 00:42:09,040
but that is very hard to

1214
00:42:12,390 --> 00:42:11,280
to establish because there's so much

1215
00:42:14,630 --> 00:42:12,400
weight

1216
00:42:16,470 --> 00:42:14,640
attached to that term which i understand

1217
00:42:17,190 --> 00:42:16,480
great thank you for hanging in there

1218
00:42:19,589 --> 00:42:17,200
with me

1219
00:42:20,309 --> 00:42:19,599
again compliments to you directly

1220
00:42:21,829 --> 00:42:20,319
answering stuff

1221
00:42:23,829 --> 00:42:21,839
let me ask you a very big picture

1222
00:42:27,430 --> 00:42:23,839
question the question

1223
00:42:30,150 --> 00:42:27,440
do you think there is a moral imperative

1224
00:42:31,750 --> 00:42:30,160
is there right and wrong or is that just

1225
00:42:33,430 --> 00:42:31,760
a social construct

1226
00:42:35,829 --> 00:42:33,440
no i think there's a moral imperative

1227
00:42:37,829 --> 00:42:35,839
which i would refer to as reciprocity

1228
00:42:39,349 --> 00:42:37,839
or which in other cultures might be

1229
00:42:41,109 --> 00:42:39,359
referred to as karma

1230
00:42:43,349 --> 00:42:41,119
i think in terms of a basic human

1231
00:42:45,349 --> 00:42:43,359
wholeness i think in terms of a basic

1232
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:45,359
reciprocity i think reciprocity is

1233
00:42:48,470 --> 00:42:46,880
what's at the back of all ethics

1234
00:42:50,470 --> 00:42:48,480
i speak of ethics more than i speak of a

1235
00:42:52,710 --> 00:42:50,480
moral imperative

1236
00:42:53,510 --> 00:42:52,720
and i think that my essential ethic in

1237
00:42:56,550 --> 00:42:53,520
life

1238
00:42:57,589 --> 00:42:56,560
is reciprocity and my essential ethic is

1239
00:42:58,470 --> 00:42:57,599
also one of

1240
00:43:00,630 --> 00:42:58,480
what i suppose you could call

1241
00:43:02,470 --> 00:43:00,640
non-violence by which i mean not

1242
00:43:04,870 --> 00:43:02,480
desisting from self-defense but not

1243
00:43:08,150 --> 00:43:04,880
doing anything to disrupt

1244
00:43:10,790 --> 00:43:08,160
another person's search for highest

1245
00:43:13,990 --> 00:43:10,800
potential that i claim for myself

1246
00:43:16,710 --> 00:43:14,000
fair enough so just straight on question

1247
00:43:18,790 --> 00:43:16,720
what do you make how do you process some

1248
00:43:21,990 --> 00:43:18,800
of the information that comes back from

1249
00:43:22,790 --> 00:43:22,000
those extended realms that would point

1250
00:43:25,030 --> 00:43:22,800
to

1251
00:43:26,390 --> 00:43:25,040
a moral imperative a hierarchy of

1252
00:43:27,750 --> 00:43:26,400
consciousness so

1253
00:43:29,589 --> 00:43:27,760
you know we've done 100 shows on

1254
00:43:31,750 --> 00:43:29,599
near-death experience just

1255
00:43:32,870 --> 00:43:31,760
interviewed dr jeffrey long who has the

1256
00:43:34,550 --> 00:43:32,880
largest

1257
00:43:36,230 --> 00:43:34,560
medically verified database of

1258
00:43:38,309 --> 00:43:36,240
near-death experiences

1259
00:43:40,230 --> 00:43:38,319
he believes that he can start seeing

1260
00:43:43,030 --> 00:43:40,240
patterns in that data

1261
00:43:43,910 --> 00:43:43,040
that any social scientist would agree

1262
00:43:46,230 --> 00:43:43,920
are

1263
00:43:47,430 --> 00:43:46,240
as valid as any other patterns we might

1264
00:43:49,109 --> 00:43:47,440
see of people who

1265
00:43:50,390 --> 00:43:49,119
suffer depression or grief or any of

1266
00:43:51,349 --> 00:43:50,400
these other things that we generally

1267
00:43:55,109 --> 00:43:51,359
accept

1268
00:43:57,670 --> 00:43:55,119
he's all about there seems to be a moral

1269
00:43:59,190 --> 00:43:57,680
hierarchy a moral imperative in this

1270
00:44:01,109 --> 00:43:59,200
extended realm

1271
00:44:02,950 --> 00:44:01,119
to what extent i'm not asking you to

1272
00:44:05,990 --> 00:44:02,960
comment on that particular data

1273
00:44:09,430 --> 00:44:06,000
but to what extent are you willing to go

1274
00:44:11,670 --> 00:44:09,440
there you know philosophically from

1275
00:44:14,309 --> 00:44:11,680
what you've discovered so far oh sure i

1276
00:44:16,950 --> 00:44:14,319
mean i in terms of the psyche

1277
00:44:18,950 --> 00:44:16,960
i don't think really with respect to

1278
00:44:19,990 --> 00:44:18,960
hierarchy exactly but in terms of the

1279
00:44:22,710 --> 00:44:20,000
psyche

1280
00:44:23,750 --> 00:44:22,720
there's certainly a polarity and that

1281
00:44:25,589 --> 00:44:23,760
polarity

1282
00:44:28,069 --> 00:44:25,599
say between good and evil on the

1283
00:44:29,910 --> 00:44:28,079
psychical scale is empathy versus spite

1284
00:44:31,510 --> 00:44:29,920
and we might be sliding on that polarity

1285
00:44:33,510 --> 00:44:31,520
in different ways all the time

1286
00:44:35,750 --> 00:44:33,520
but the individual's capacity for

1287
00:44:38,870 --> 00:44:35,760
empathy

1288
00:44:39,510 --> 00:44:38,880
probably everything that lay behind what

1289
00:44:41,109 --> 00:44:39,520
we would call

1290
00:44:43,510 --> 00:44:41,119
ethics or what somebody might call

1291
00:44:45,109 --> 00:44:43,520
morality the individual's capacity for

1292
00:44:46,710 --> 00:44:45,119
spite is the polar opposite

1293
00:44:48,950 --> 00:44:46,720
and we may slide along that scale in

1294
00:44:49,990 --> 00:44:48,960
different ways but as above so below you

1295
00:44:51,829 --> 00:44:50,000
know if that scale exists

1296
00:44:53,510 --> 00:44:51,839
on the psyche then it probably exists on

1297
00:44:55,430 --> 00:44:53,520
greater scales as well

1298
00:44:57,109 --> 00:44:55,440
okay let me just see if i can pull it a

1299
00:44:58,069 --> 00:44:57,119
little slightly different direction

1300
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:58,079
because

1301
00:45:05,030 --> 00:45:01,359
i get what you're saying that wounds up

1302
00:45:07,430 --> 00:45:05,040
sounding a lot like what the materialist

1303
00:45:08,870 --> 00:45:07,440
atheists say about a socially

1304
00:45:12,309 --> 00:45:08,880
constructed

1305
00:45:14,870 --> 00:45:12,319
morality that is not

1306
00:45:16,470 --> 00:45:14,880
connected with this extended reality

1307
00:45:18,870 --> 00:45:16,480
that we're talking about this force

1308
00:45:19,750 --> 00:45:18,880
if you will so what i like about for

1309
00:45:22,630 --> 00:45:19,760
example dr

1310
00:45:23,589 --> 00:45:22,640
long's work is he says okay we're it

1311
00:45:27,030 --> 00:45:23,599
we're past

1312
00:45:27,670 --> 00:45:27,040
this time space limited consciousness we

1313
00:45:29,430 --> 00:45:27,680
are in this

1314
00:45:30,950 --> 00:45:29,440
extended consciousness that is beyond

1315
00:45:32,630 --> 00:45:30,960
time space

1316
00:45:35,670 --> 00:45:32,640
and now here's the information we're

1317
00:45:37,670 --> 00:45:35,680
getting back we know we can't rely on it

1318
00:45:39,030 --> 00:45:37,680
completely because it's contradictory in

1319
00:45:40,069 --> 00:45:39,040
so many ways just like so much of the

1320
00:45:42,870 --> 00:45:40,079
esoteric

1321
00:45:44,309 --> 00:45:42,880
information that you have studied but he

1322
00:45:46,550 --> 00:45:44,319
says here's the pattern

1323
00:45:47,589 --> 00:45:46,560
and the pattern is god for lack of a

1324
00:45:50,870 --> 00:45:47,599
better term

1325
00:45:52,069 --> 00:45:50,880
hierarchy uh moral imperative there is a

1326
00:45:54,309 --> 00:45:52,079
good you should go

1327
00:45:55,510 --> 00:45:54,319
towards the light all that kind of stuff

1328
00:45:57,349 --> 00:45:55,520
and i'm just wondering

1329
00:45:58,550 --> 00:45:57,359
how you deal with that how you process

1330
00:45:59,829 --> 00:45:58,560
that what do you think about that

1331
00:46:00,150 --> 00:45:59,839
there's a lot of different opinions on

1332
00:46:03,109 --> 00:46:00,160
that

1333
00:46:04,150 --> 00:46:03,119
but i i kind of leave out the the

1334
00:46:05,750 --> 00:46:04,160
atheist kind of

1335
00:46:08,390 --> 00:46:05,760
well you know it's just all what we

1336
00:46:11,109 --> 00:46:08,400
decide and it's you know the moral

1337
00:46:12,390 --> 00:46:11,119
no there's let's assume there is this

1338
00:46:14,870 --> 00:46:12,400
greater extended

1339
00:46:16,630 --> 00:46:14,880
consciousness well life tends towards

1340
00:46:17,910 --> 00:46:16,640
generativity you know we see that in

1341
00:46:19,910 --> 00:46:17,920
nature

1342
00:46:21,750 --> 00:46:19,920
we see what might be called eternal

1343
00:46:25,190 --> 00:46:21,760
recurrence in nature we see

1344
00:46:27,349 --> 00:46:25,200
polarities in nature i believe that

1345
00:46:29,349 --> 00:46:27,359
there is a generative principle in life

1346
00:46:32,230 --> 00:46:29,359
i think in terms of generativity

1347
00:46:35,430 --> 00:46:32,240
productivity self-expression

1348
00:46:38,150 --> 00:46:35,440
the fostering of potential

1349
00:46:38,950 --> 00:46:38,160
again not doing anything to deprive

1350
00:46:41,750 --> 00:46:38,960
another person

1351
00:46:43,190 --> 00:46:41,760
actively of that which i seek for myself

1352
00:46:45,910 --> 00:46:43,200
which includes

1353
00:46:46,390 --> 00:46:45,920
physical safety highest human potential

1354
00:46:48,069 --> 00:46:46,400
uh

1355
00:46:49,510 --> 00:46:48,079
protection of the individual search for

1356
00:46:52,550 --> 00:46:49,520
meaning um

1357
00:46:54,630 --> 00:46:52,560
i don't necessarily think in terms of uh

1358
00:46:55,990 --> 00:46:54,640
hierarchy i think of the greatest moral

1359
00:46:57,510 --> 00:46:56,000
imperative is being

1360
00:46:59,349 --> 00:46:57,520
again one of a kind of cosmic

1361
00:46:59,910 --> 00:46:59,359
reciprocity and i think that follows us

1362
00:47:01,510 --> 00:46:59,920
into

1363
00:47:05,030 --> 00:47:01,520
every area of life and i think we see

1364
00:47:08,230 --> 00:47:05,040
those cycles repeated in nature as well

1365
00:47:10,309 --> 00:47:08,240
so mitch you are always a busy guy

1366
00:47:12,069 --> 00:47:10,319
writing a lot of books a lot of

1367
00:47:14,309 --> 00:47:12,079
appearances

1368
00:47:16,470 --> 00:47:14,319
what's coming up for you now or what are

1369
00:47:17,589 --> 00:47:16,480
you most interested in now what's caught

1370
00:47:18,950 --> 00:47:17,599
your attention

1371
00:47:21,349 --> 00:47:18,960
and what's coming up for you in the

1372
00:47:23,349 --> 00:47:21,359
future what i'm really most interested

1373
00:47:24,470 --> 00:47:23,359
in right now and this is the subject of

1374
00:47:27,270 --> 00:47:24,480
a book in progress

1375
00:47:28,630 --> 00:47:27,280
i'm trying to really get down to the

1376
00:47:33,190 --> 00:47:28,640
guts within

1377
00:47:37,349 --> 00:47:33,200
the mind causation or positive mind

1378
00:47:41,270 --> 00:47:37,359
um gambit or thesis

1379
00:47:44,630 --> 00:47:41,280
you know are our thoughts causative

1380
00:47:46,630 --> 00:47:44,640
if so to what extent

1381
00:47:48,390 --> 00:47:46,640
how are we is it possible you know to

1382
00:47:51,829 --> 00:47:48,400
sort of understand this

1383
00:47:52,870 --> 00:47:51,839
um within the ordinary hours of our

1384
00:47:54,950 --> 00:47:52,880
lives

1385
00:47:57,270 --> 00:47:54,960
how do we respond if perhaps we've been

1386
00:48:00,630 --> 00:47:57,280
dedicated to these kinds of methods

1387
00:48:01,430 --> 00:48:00,640
and they fail and how does one deal with

1388
00:48:04,549 --> 00:48:01,440
spiritual

1389
00:48:07,109 --> 00:48:04,559
failure and i

1390
00:48:07,589 --> 00:48:07,119
i believe that the mind power thesis is

1391
00:48:11,270 --> 00:48:07,599
valid

1392
00:48:13,589 --> 00:48:11,280
believe that it has not been

1393
00:48:17,270 --> 00:48:13,599
sufficiently developed to

1394
00:48:19,750 --> 00:48:17,280
uh accommodate questions of suffering

1395
00:48:20,309 --> 00:48:19,760
uh very deeply complex questions some of

1396
00:48:21,990 --> 00:48:20,319
which are

1397
00:48:23,829 --> 00:48:22,000
unique to our time like people being

1398
00:48:27,750 --> 00:48:23,839
able to live very long lives

1399
00:48:28,870 --> 00:48:27,760
but not necessarily with health and

1400
00:48:31,030 --> 00:48:28,880
it doesn't do a good job of

1401
00:48:32,630 --> 00:48:31,040
accommodating failure

1402
00:48:35,030 --> 00:48:32,640
what do you mean it doesn't do a good

1403
00:48:38,069 --> 00:48:35,040
job of accommodating failure

1404
00:48:40,630 --> 00:48:38,079
well let's say for example i have some

1405
00:48:41,270 --> 00:48:40,640
deeply deeply cherished aim or wish in

1406
00:48:44,150 --> 00:48:41,280
my life

1407
00:48:45,510 --> 00:48:44,160
and and it goes bust you know i don't

1408
00:48:48,950 --> 00:48:45,520
want to run away from

1409
00:48:51,750 --> 00:48:48,960
questions of defeat

1410
00:48:53,030 --> 00:48:51,760
or failure i wish for myself what i wish

1411
00:48:54,790 --> 00:48:53,040
for everyone

1412
00:48:56,630 --> 00:48:54,800
watching this right now which is that

1413
00:48:58,790 --> 00:48:56,640
you're able to pursue

1414
00:49:00,230 --> 00:48:58,800
your ethical wishes with tremendous

1415
00:49:02,549 --> 00:49:00,240
effectiveness but

1416
00:49:04,150 --> 00:49:02,559
there are things in life that present

1417
00:49:06,710 --> 00:49:04,160
countervailing forces

1418
00:49:08,549 --> 00:49:06,720
and if the positive mind thesis is

1419
00:49:10,230 --> 00:49:08,559
correct it has to take account of that

1420
00:49:11,270 --> 00:49:10,240
so i'm trying to really get down to the

1421
00:49:14,309 --> 00:49:11,280
guts

1422
00:49:17,589 --> 00:49:14,319
of how we can arrive at

1423
00:49:19,510 --> 00:49:17,599
a mature theory of

1424
00:49:21,990 --> 00:49:19,520
positive mind metaphysics if if one

1425
00:49:23,829 --> 00:49:22,000
thinks that's valid which i do

1426
00:49:27,190 --> 00:49:23,839
and what do you find most compelling

1427
00:49:30,790 --> 00:49:27,200
from a historical standpoint

1428
00:49:31,270 --> 00:49:30,800
in terms of what would inform that kind

1429
00:49:38,390 --> 00:49:31,280
of

1430
00:49:40,069 --> 00:49:38,400
yeah

1431
00:49:42,470 --> 00:49:40,079
i have a big problem with the secret

1432
00:49:44,230 --> 00:49:42,480
because i i think the secret posits a

1433
00:49:46,710 --> 00:49:44,240
model of there being this one

1434
00:49:48,069 --> 00:49:46,720
giant mental super law and i think in

1435
00:49:50,870 --> 00:49:48,079
fact we experience

1436
00:49:52,309 --> 00:49:50,880
many different laws and forces but

1437
00:49:55,589 --> 00:49:52,319
probably

1438
00:49:56,630 --> 00:49:55,599
um let's say the last 90 years of

1439
00:49:59,270 --> 00:49:56,640
experiments in

1440
00:50:01,589 --> 00:49:59,280
in quantum theory have been just

1441
00:50:05,030 --> 00:50:01,599
absolutely extraordinary

1442
00:50:07,670 --> 00:50:05,040
in demonstrating that reality doesn't

1443
00:50:10,470 --> 00:50:07,680
behave itself on the subatomic level

1444
00:50:12,790 --> 00:50:10,480
and a law in order to be a law must be

1445
00:50:13,430 --> 00:50:12,800
consistent so we must be experiencing

1446
00:50:14,870 --> 00:50:13,440
that

1447
00:50:17,030 --> 00:50:14,880
on the macro level there are

1448
00:50:19,270 --> 00:50:17,040
interventions that keep us from

1449
00:50:21,670 --> 00:50:19,280
experiencing it in the same way

1450
00:50:23,430 --> 00:50:21,680
that one might on the micro level just

1451
00:50:24,069 --> 00:50:23,440
as there are interventions that keep us

1452
00:50:26,069 --> 00:50:24,079
from

1453
00:50:27,910 --> 00:50:26,079
experiencing gravity in the same way in

1454
00:50:28,950 --> 00:50:27,920
all circumstances even though gravity is

1455
00:50:32,549 --> 00:50:28,960
constant

1456
00:50:36,150 --> 00:50:32,559
so the the quantum theory suggests to us

1457
00:50:37,030 --> 00:50:36,160
that perspective is constant and it's

1458
00:50:38,630 --> 00:50:37,040
effective

1459
00:50:40,630 --> 00:50:38,640
but what gets in the way of it there may

1460
00:50:42,069 --> 00:50:40,640
be any number of intervening forces

1461
00:50:42,790 --> 00:50:42,079
there might be infinite intervening

1462
00:50:45,030 --> 00:50:42,800
forces

1463
00:50:46,390 --> 00:50:45,040
but that reality that law if i could put

1464
00:50:49,270 --> 00:50:46,400
it that way is present

1465
00:50:50,790 --> 00:50:49,280
and that's fascinating to me and what

1466
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:50,800
are the most significant links

1467
00:50:55,670 --> 00:50:54,480
you find to that and the esoteric

1468
00:50:58,710 --> 00:50:55,680
literature that you're

1469
00:50:59,990 --> 00:50:58,720
so well versed in well my man who i have

1470
00:51:02,309 --> 00:51:00,000
tattooed here on my arm

1471
00:51:04,150 --> 00:51:02,319
is neville goddard and uh he was a

1472
00:51:07,349 --> 00:51:04,160
british barbadone thinker

1473
00:51:11,510 --> 00:51:07,359
who he died in 1972 and

1474
00:51:15,430 --> 00:51:11,520
neville i think created the greatest

1475
00:51:17,430 --> 00:51:15,440
mystical analog to

1476
00:51:20,069 --> 00:51:17,440
quantum theory you know neville was

1477
00:51:22,230 --> 00:51:20,079
talking about things that we today

1478
00:51:23,349 --> 00:51:22,240
would identify with quantum theory but

1479
00:51:24,870 --> 00:51:23,359
he was talking about them say in the

1480
00:51:26,230 --> 00:51:24,880
late 1940s

1481
00:51:28,150 --> 00:51:26,240
uh when none of this stuff was

1482
00:51:30,390 --> 00:51:28,160
popularized and

1483
00:51:31,829 --> 00:51:30,400
he's been an extraordinary source of

1484
00:51:36,069 --> 00:51:31,839
inspiration to me

1485
00:51:40,870 --> 00:51:36,079
but um as with many of my sources

1486
00:51:43,910 --> 00:51:40,880
of inspiration i love him but i love him

1487
00:51:47,589 --> 00:51:43,920
in light of disagreements and i

1488
00:51:50,069 --> 00:51:47,599
i do believe that neville didn't

1489
00:51:50,950 --> 00:51:50,079
account for in his philosophy which is

1490
00:51:52,950 --> 00:51:50,960
basically that

1491
00:51:54,710 --> 00:51:52,960
your mind is the creative force of the

1492
00:51:56,390 --> 00:51:54,720
universe your mind is what we refer to

1493
00:52:00,069 --> 00:51:56,400
symbolically in scripture as

1494
00:52:03,910 --> 00:52:00,079
god or christ and you are

1495
00:52:05,349 --> 00:52:03,920
all your emotionalized thoughts are the

1496
00:52:06,150 --> 00:52:05,359
birthing mechanism of everything that

1497
00:52:08,230 --> 00:52:06,160
you experience

1498
00:52:09,349 --> 00:52:08,240
that's a tantalizing theory and he could

1499
00:52:12,390 --> 00:52:09,359
argue for it with

1500
00:52:15,030 --> 00:52:12,400
elegance which he did but

1501
00:52:15,670 --> 00:52:15,040
i don't think he took into account that

1502
00:52:17,990 --> 00:52:15,680
again

1503
00:52:19,750 --> 00:52:18,000
i used to say we we live under many

1504
00:52:22,069 --> 00:52:19,760
different laws and forces now i put it a

1505
00:52:24,069 --> 00:52:22,079
little differently i said we experience

1506
00:52:25,829 --> 00:52:24,079
many different laws and forces there's

1507
00:52:29,270 --> 00:52:25,839
so many intervening things

1508
00:52:32,549 --> 00:52:29,280
cannot

1509
00:52:35,030 --> 00:52:32,559
uh allow for the fact that people who uh

1510
00:52:36,790 --> 00:52:35,040
dwell in tragic circumstances are

1511
00:52:37,910 --> 00:52:36,800
self-creating that i don't believe that

1512
00:52:39,829 --> 00:52:37,920
i believe there are other

1513
00:52:41,349 --> 00:52:39,839
interventionary circumstances i also

1514
00:52:43,270 --> 00:52:41,359
believe that neville was right

1515
00:52:45,349 --> 00:52:43,280
so there's a kind of paradoxical thing

1516
00:52:47,109 --> 00:52:45,359
and someone told me many years ago

1517
00:52:48,950 --> 00:52:47,119
listen if you want to get somewhere on

1518
00:52:49,990 --> 00:52:48,960
the spiritual path a lot of it depends

1519
00:52:53,829 --> 00:52:50,000
upon

1520
00:52:56,549 --> 00:52:53,839
having a very high toleration level

1521
00:52:58,710 --> 00:52:56,559
for paradox and i've come to realize

1522
00:53:01,430 --> 00:52:58,720
that more and more as years have passed

1523
00:53:02,470 --> 00:53:01,440
so while neville's thesis is at the core

1524
00:53:04,950 --> 00:53:02,480
of my life

1525
00:53:05,750 --> 00:53:04,960
there's too much that goes on in life in

1526
00:53:08,230 --> 00:53:05,760
general

1527
00:53:10,390 --> 00:53:08,240
that it doesn't fully cover and and so

1528
00:53:12,309 --> 00:53:10,400
i'm trying to marry my

1529
00:53:14,309 --> 00:53:12,319
my love for this man's ideas which i

1530
00:53:16,950 --> 00:53:14,319
share in which i experiment with

1531
00:53:18,309 --> 00:53:16,960
with my own insistence that there must

1532
00:53:19,670 --> 00:53:18,319
be other laws and forces that are

1533
00:53:20,870 --> 00:53:19,680
intervening because there's too many

1534
00:53:23,349 --> 00:53:20,880
things in life

1535
00:53:24,630 --> 00:53:23,359
uh that we see that i believe are not

1536
00:53:26,549 --> 00:53:24,640
attributable to

1537
00:53:28,150 --> 00:53:26,559
the individual's mental picturizing or

1538
00:53:29,910 --> 00:53:28,160
emotionalized thoughts

1539
00:53:31,349 --> 00:53:29,920
the only thing that stands in its way

1540
00:53:34,870 --> 00:53:31,359
really is kind of

1541
00:53:38,390 --> 00:53:34,880
a lot of this absurd guilt-induced

1542
00:53:39,670 --> 00:53:38,400
religious dogma that is so woven into

1543
00:53:42,630 --> 00:53:39,680
our culture and i just think

1544
00:53:44,470 --> 00:53:42,640
when that stripped away that all the

1545
00:53:47,990 --> 00:53:44,480
rest of this stuff just seems

1546
00:53:49,910 --> 00:53:48,000
not even controversial of course we are

1547
00:53:52,790 --> 00:53:49,920
you know the captain of our ship of

1548
00:53:56,069 --> 00:53:52,800
course we are co-creators of our reality

1549
00:53:58,390 --> 00:53:56,079
of course whatever divinity there is we

1550
00:54:01,190 --> 00:53:58,400
have access to it directly

1551
00:54:02,710 --> 00:54:01,200
how have they manufactured that

1552
00:54:04,950 --> 00:54:02,720
obfuscated that

1553
00:54:06,710 --> 00:54:04,960
in some way that that even has to be

1554
00:54:08,790 --> 00:54:06,720
something that we wrestle with

1555
00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:08,800
do you have any thoughts on that well

1556
00:54:14,069 --> 00:54:10,160
you know i think it's probably

1557
00:54:14,630 --> 00:54:14,079
because there's so much suffering in

1558
00:54:17,670 --> 00:54:14,640
life

1559
00:54:20,870 --> 00:54:17,680
and in order to come up with a

1560
00:54:23,109 --> 00:54:20,880
a framework for understanding that um

1561
00:54:24,309 --> 00:54:23,119
different institutions for example have

1562
00:54:26,870 --> 00:54:24,319
arrived at

1563
00:54:29,270 --> 00:54:26,880
theologies of suffering but as we know

1564
00:54:29,910 --> 00:54:29,280
now has been exposed a lot of times that

1565
00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:29,920
is the

1566
00:54:35,190 --> 00:54:32,640
the manipulation and the weaponization

1567
00:54:36,630 --> 00:54:35,200
of suffering so it's not just like

1568
00:54:37,990 --> 00:54:36,640
they come in saying i'm going to heal

1569
00:54:39,589 --> 00:54:38,000
you but what they're really trying to do

1570
00:54:42,870 --> 00:54:39,599
is inflict that suffering

1571
00:54:45,510 --> 00:54:42,880
in as a kind of control guilt

1572
00:54:45,990 --> 00:54:45,520
whole thing well it's an interesting

1573
00:54:49,349 --> 00:54:46,000
question

1574
00:54:50,309 --> 00:54:49,359
you know i mean i uh i never want people

1575
00:54:52,870 --> 00:54:50,319
to feel

1576
00:54:54,549 --> 00:54:52,880
that i have kind of um

1577
00:54:56,710 --> 00:54:54,559
[Music]

1578
00:54:57,750 --> 00:54:56,720
a stock or an off-the-shelf you know

1579
00:55:01,829 --> 00:54:57,760
judgment of or

1580
00:55:06,069 --> 00:55:04,829
communities of belief we'll say so for

1581
00:55:09,510 --> 00:55:06,079
example

1582
00:55:11,349 --> 00:55:09,520
um the catholic church has

1583
00:55:13,030 --> 00:55:11,359
a very serious and highly developed

1584
00:55:14,870 --> 00:55:13,040
theology of suffering

1585
00:55:16,069 --> 00:55:14,880
i think there's some merit in it you

1586
00:55:17,670 --> 00:55:16,079
know i think that that

1587
00:55:19,190 --> 00:55:17,680
i don't know you know in the ultimate

1588
00:55:20,789 --> 00:55:19,200
sense that it's true

1589
00:55:22,950 --> 00:55:20,799
i don't believe it as my personal

1590
00:55:25,270 --> 00:55:22,960
philosophy but i do think

1591
00:55:27,109 --> 00:55:25,280
that it's an effort that is at once

1592
00:55:29,750 --> 00:55:27,119
institutional and hierarchical

1593
00:55:30,710 --> 00:55:29,760
and at once deeply serious and

1594
00:55:32,950 --> 00:55:30,720
meaningful

1595
00:55:34,870 --> 00:55:32,960
and for example like someone like norman

1596
00:55:36,950 --> 00:55:34,880
vincent peale a protestant minister who

1597
00:55:39,109 --> 00:55:36,960
wrote the power of positive thinking

1598
00:55:40,630 --> 00:55:39,119
my criticism of peel is that he didn't

1599
00:55:42,390 --> 00:55:40,640
have a theology of suffering

1600
00:55:44,150 --> 00:55:42,400
he didn't grapple with those questions

1601
00:55:47,109 --> 00:55:44,160
sufficiently enough or deep enough

1602
00:55:48,069 --> 00:55:47,119
by by miles although i love him in other

1603
00:55:49,990 --> 00:55:48,079
ways

1604
00:55:52,390 --> 00:55:50,000
and so you know i look at neville for

1605
00:55:55,270 --> 00:55:52,400
example and neville would say that

1606
00:55:56,630 --> 00:55:55,280
if you're suffering you need to assume

1607
00:55:59,109 --> 00:55:56,640
the feeling state

1608
00:55:59,750 --> 00:55:59,119
of deliverance and that feeling state

1609
00:56:02,710 --> 00:55:59,760
itself

1610
00:56:03,990 --> 00:56:02,720
will eventually harden into the contours

1611
00:56:07,510 --> 00:56:04,000
of reality

1612
00:56:09,910 --> 00:56:07,520
now i think

1613
00:56:11,349 --> 00:56:09,920
it's a fact of human nature and other

1614
00:56:13,430 --> 00:56:11,359
people watching can make their own

1615
00:56:15,270 --> 00:56:13,440
determinations about this but

1616
00:56:17,910 --> 00:56:15,280
i believe it's a fact of human nature i

1617
00:56:20,309 --> 00:56:17,920
say from a long lifetime on this path

1618
00:56:23,030 --> 00:56:20,319
that when a person is in the depths of

1619
00:56:25,430 --> 00:56:23,040
grief or addiction or suffering

1620
00:56:27,349 --> 00:56:25,440
i think it is all but asking that person

1621
00:56:29,270 --> 00:56:27,359
to do the impossible

1622
00:56:30,390 --> 00:56:29,280
by assuming the feeling state of a

1623
00:56:33,430 --> 00:56:30,400
diametrically

1624
00:56:35,670 --> 00:56:33,440
different reality they would almost have

1625
00:56:36,710 --> 00:56:35,680
to be a master thespian to the point of

1626
00:56:39,030 --> 00:56:36,720
some sort of

1627
00:56:39,910 --> 00:56:39,040
transcendental ability to assume that

1628
00:56:42,950 --> 00:56:39,920
feeling state

1629
00:56:44,710 --> 00:56:42,960
psychically so does that mean that the

1630
00:56:46,470 --> 00:56:44,720
truly suffering individual is kind of

1631
00:56:47,910 --> 00:56:46,480
locked outside the gate sorry there's

1632
00:56:49,829 --> 00:56:47,920
nothing we can do for you this is the

1633
00:56:52,390 --> 00:56:49,839
method and if you can't follow it

1634
00:56:53,829 --> 00:56:52,400
you're out of luck i i dispute that i

1635
00:56:55,349 --> 00:56:53,839
don't think that mother nature has

1636
00:56:57,750 --> 00:56:55,359
played a cruel joke on us

1637
00:56:59,910 --> 00:56:57,760
we're the only way that we can access

1638
00:57:02,870 --> 00:56:59,920
desired causative energies of the mind

1639
00:57:04,470 --> 00:57:02,880
is to work ourselves into a feeling

1640
00:57:05,990 --> 00:57:04,480
state that's opposite where we are

1641
00:57:07,589 --> 00:57:06,000
i don't think that's possible i think

1642
00:57:09,190 --> 00:57:07,599
it's possible from an armchair

1643
00:57:11,109 --> 00:57:09,200
i don't think it's possible from a state

1644
00:57:12,390 --> 00:57:11,119
of deep grief so one of the things i'm

1645
00:57:13,430 --> 00:57:12,400
trying to do in this new book

1646
00:57:16,390 --> 00:57:13,440
that i'm working on which i was

1647
00:57:18,230 --> 00:57:16,400
referencing is i'm asking are there

1648
00:57:19,910 --> 00:57:18,240
alternate methods available to the

1649
00:57:22,470 --> 00:57:19,920
suffering person that's a huge

1650
00:57:23,990 --> 00:57:22,480
question for me right now great really

1651
00:57:27,030 --> 00:57:24,000
appreciate you

1652
00:57:29,109 --> 00:57:27,040
engaging so fully in this dialogue

1653
00:57:31,589 --> 00:57:29,119
as you know that's uh something a lot of

1654
00:57:34,710 --> 00:57:31,599
people have a hard time doing but

1655
00:57:37,030 --> 00:57:34,720
i always find that these conversations

1656
00:57:38,789 --> 00:57:37,040
are important to a lot of people who

1657
00:57:39,109 --> 00:57:38,799
seek them out and never seem to find

1658
00:57:42,309 --> 00:57:39,119
them

1659
00:57:44,470 --> 00:57:42,319
so it's been great having you on and uh

1660
00:57:46,710 --> 00:57:44,480
i really appreciate you joining us thank

1661
00:57:48,470 --> 00:57:46,720
you man i appreciate it very much

1662
00:57:50,309 --> 00:57:48,480
thanks again to mitch horowitz for

1663
00:57:51,349 --> 00:57:50,319
joining me today on skeptico and i guess

1664
00:57:54,870 --> 00:57:51,359
the one question i t

1665
00:57:58,390 --> 00:57:54,880
up from this interview is

1666
00:58:02,230 --> 00:57:58,400
what's the game what's going

1667
00:58:04,069 --> 00:58:02,240
on here what's with the deception what's

1668
00:58:06,789 --> 00:58:04,079
with the coded speech

1669
00:58:07,349 --> 00:58:06,799
what's with the kind of wink and not

1670
00:58:09,589 --> 00:58:07,359
hidden

1671
00:58:11,190 --> 00:58:09,599
stuff none of this stuff seems that

1672
00:58:14,549 --> 00:58:11,200
complicated to me

1673
00:58:19,510 --> 00:58:14,559
why is it always portrayed as so damn

1674
00:58:21,430 --> 00:58:19,520
esoteric so darn occulted

1675
00:58:22,710 --> 00:58:21,440
let me know your thoughts place it do it

1676
00:58:25,589 --> 00:58:22,720
as a skeptical form or

1677
00:58:26,150 --> 00:58:25,599
anywhere you track me down glad you're

1678
00:58:28,069 --> 00:58:26,160
here

1679
00:58:29,190 --> 00:58:28,079
glad you're joining me this is my

1680
00:58:31,670 --> 00:58:29,200
journey

1681
00:58:34,309 --> 00:58:31,680
shared with anyone else who's interested

1682
00:58:37,510 --> 00:58:34,319
so if it suits you if it fits you

1683
00:58:41,349 --> 00:58:37,520
come along and if it doesn't that's okay

1684
00:58:51,060 --> 00:58:41,359
i get it no problem until next time

1685
00:58:58,130 --> 00:58:51,070
take care and bye for now